The Problem With Making The Offense More Advanced

[cuse522]

People have rightfully complained (me included) that the offense we run is very simplistic and relatively easy to defend. Thus, we struggle against elite competition when we don't have high level offensive talent. We don't beat UVA without Malachi going off for that stretch.

Since we don't get as many of the blue chip prospects as the blue blood programs, there's a good case to be made for spending more time on the offense. But, there's a problem with that. Boeheim has put an enhanced focus on the zone in recent years, and it looks so much better the last five years than it did when I was in school (graduated '08).

Part of that is certainly the players in the zone, but I'd argue that Boeheim has them trapping and playing a lot more aggressively, the zone expands and contracts more, it's more amoeba-like. That's made it tougher to play against. Meanwhile, fewer and fewer teams across the country use zone, and you have more and more one-and-done players at the top schools who aren't as coached up because they haven't had college coaching for more than five to six months.

This makes the zone more effective, and I think it's a conscious decision by Boeheim to focus more and more on the zone and less and less on offense, given the dynamic that plays into our hands.

Thus, I think the best move going forward is to basically keep the offense simple, but tweak it just a little bit. We need the high ball screen to be able to be a pick and roll. We need someone who can hit a shot or drive to the basket setting that screen. Next year that could be Lydon at times or Richardson at times depending on the lineup, which is why I think the offense will be a lot better. But Boeheim has to choose to make that change rather than having DC2 or Roberson set it.

In my opinion he also needs to come up with something simple when that's not working that is more than just iso player A or spread the floor for player A and let him drive the basket. There needs to be some movement, some screens, even if it's elementary or freelanced.

Basically, Boeheim has managed to maximize the impact of the zone by, I'm guessing, devoting tons of practice time to it. He needs to find a way to make the offense at least a LITTLE more effective without devoting much time to it, because obviously we're having success off of emphasizing the zone.

 

[upperdeck]

could just shoot better around the basket and the open shots.. we got plenty of those, offense isnt the issue shooting is.

 

[Brooky03]

Boeheim doesn't need to change the offensive scheme. He just needs a better offensive players than we've had. Next season's team will be a big step in that direction.

 

[pfister1]

Boeheim doesn't need to change the offensive scheme. He just needs a better offensive players than we've had. Next season's team will be a big step in that direction.

That's what we thought last year coming into this year. We were going to have shooters coming out of our ears. We'd be very difficult to defense because we would have as many as 4 three point shooters on the court at any given time.

 

[Brooky03]

That's what we thought last year coming into this year. We were going to have shooters coming out of our ears. We'd be very difficult to defense because we would have as many as 4 three point shooters on the court at any given time.

We knew we didn't have a PG and C was a big question mark. I don't know if anybody was expecting an offensive powerhouse. Expecting more 3's? Yes, but not an entire offensive improvement.

 

[TheCusian]

The problem for most of the year was rebounding and interior D. It's no mistake that it got better at the same time we got more consistency from Roberson and Lydon started getting 5 blocks a game.

On offense we were a jump shooting team. When the shots didn't fall we had no where to go.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Our best players this year were 3 shooting guards and a small forward who played center. We went to the final four with that lineup and we need to change strategy? How about players playing their correct positions?

 

[longislandcuse]

Our best players this year were 3 shooting guards and a small forward who played center. We went to the final four with that lineup and we need to change strategy? How about players playing their correct positions?

Cmon man, our offense is a problem and has been one for a while now.

 

[SUFan44]

People have rightfully complained (me included) that the offense we run is very simplistic and relatively easy to defend. Thus, we struggle against elite competition when we don't have high level offensive talent. We don't beat UVA without Malachi going off for that stretch.

Since we don't get as many of the blue chip prospects as the blue blood programs, there's a good case to be made for spending more time on the offense. But, there's a problem with that. Boeheim has put an enhanced focus on the zone in recent years, and it looks so much better the last five years than it did when I was in school (graduated '08).

Part of that is certainly the players in the zone, but I'd argue that Boeheim has them trapping and playing a lot more aggressively, the zone expands and contracts more, it's more amoeba-like. That's made it tougher to play against. Meanwhile, fewer and fewer teams across the country use zone, and you have more and more one-and-done players at the top schools who aren't as coached up because they haven't had college coaching for more than five to six months.

This makes the zone more effective, and I think it's a conscious decision by Boeheim to focus more and more on the zone and less and less on offense, given the dynamic that plays into our hands.

Thus, I think the best move going forward is to basically keep the offense simple, but tweak it just a little bit. We need the high ball screen to be able to be a pick and roll. We need someone who can hit a shot or drive to the basket setting that screen. Next year that could be Lydon at times or Richardson at times depending on the lineup, which is why I think the offense will be a lot better. But Boeheim has to choose to make that change rather than having DC2 or Roberson set it.

In my opinion he also needs to come up with something simple when that's not working that is more than just iso player A or spread the floor for player A and let him drive the basket. There needs to be some movement, some screens, even if it's elementary or freelanced.

Basically, Boeheim has managed to maximize the impact of the zone by, I'm guessing, devoting tons of practice time to it. He needs to find a way to make the offense at least a LITTLE more effective without devoting much time to it, because obviously we're having success off of emphasizing the zone.

A point guard that can get by a defender off the dribble would be one step in the right direction.

A center that can make a post move without fumbling the ball would be another.

Offenses look a lot better when you have better players - no matter what offense you run.

 

[tbonezone]

for years now boeheim has tried to craft a line up that gets his 5 best players on the court playing too many minutes. regardless of their "true" position.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Cmon man, our offense is a problem and has been one for a while now.

I don't know. Our offense was a big step up from last year. In the games we struggled it usually was player related more than scheme related.

We missed a lot of layups and dunks this year. Aren't offenses designed to get layups and dunks? Maybe we should of made more of those.

 

[cuse522]

could just shoot better around the basket and the open shots.. we got plenty of those, offense isnt the issue shooting is.

Around the basket is one thing, and some of that comes down to talent, practice, strength, etc - and we've had the guys more focused on developing in the defense from what I understand. Some of the open shots, from an analytics standpoint, aren't very good i.e. mid range jumpers and long 2s.

Boeheim doesn't need to change the offensive scheme. He just needs a better offensive players than we've had. Next season's team will be a big step in that direction.

Hopefully, yes, and I'm arguing against making big changes - but he needs tweaks IMO. Focusing on the zone allows us to make runs any given year, especially when we're good. To win it all, we'll need more offensive output without spending significantly more time on offense. Therein lies the challenge.

That's what we thought last year coming into this year. We were going to have shooters coming out of our ears. We'd be very difficult to defense because we would have as many as 4 three point shooters on the court at any given time.

The problem is, sometimes we have them all standing around while one guy tries to drive... Something as simple as constantly having them set screens for each other would help create shots without requiring much practice time.

A point guard that can get by a defender off the dribble would be one step in the right direction.

A center that can make a post move without fumbling the ball would be another.

Offenses look a lot better when you have better players - no matter what offense you run.

That'd certainly help, and we should have the first next year. As for the post moves, some of that comes down to how much practice time is devoted to that vs. the zone. Like I said, we seem to be focusing more and more on the defense, and the results are overall positive, so we need simple tweaks to the offense.

for years now boeheim has tried to craft a line up that gets his 5 best players on the court playing too many minutes. regardless of their "true" position.

This seems smart to me, I'm not sure which side of that you're coming down on.

 

[Alsacs]

We need a Rick Jackson type big. Who isn't going to post up the entire game but can get the ball thrown down to him and score some points.

If this year's time had Rak Christmas it could have beaten UNC.

We had no post game this year and our PGs we weren't that good at getting to the rim. Frank Howard was capable of it but he didn't get much PT.

Our offense was easy to defend because we had no post game, very little dribble drive, a SG who was easy to defend, and SF playing out of position. It could improve but JB's offensive system is the same.

Have the 5 set pick and rolls, run the curl play for our shooters, run double screens on the strong side etc. I know all of SU's sets as they don't really change. I would like to see a better offense. If our offense was better with this zone we could win it all.

 

[two3zone]

My question is could our offense be any less advanced?

While we have a remarkable defense and obviously focus our team around it our offense is extremely basic, anybody who's played any sort of organized basketball shouldn't have trouble picking it up.

 

[dasher]

Cmon man, our offense is a problem and has been one for a while now.

offense is a problem for just about everyone. When we have a pt guard and a low post scorer, we are fine.

 

[cuse522]

My question is could our offense be any less advanced?

While we have a remarkable defense and obviously focus our team around it our offense is extremely basic, anybody who's played any sort of organized basketball shouldn't have trouble picking it up.

I don't want to make it less advanced, I just don't think it's realistic to want to make it advanced. People after the championship game were talking about what if we had an offense like Villanova or UNC, but then we wouldn't have the 2-3 zone functioning the way it is.

I'm basically suggesting that we expand the variety of simple things we do. Sometimes we have four guys standing around the perimeter waiting for the PG to drive... Well, listen, why can't the guy on the wing set a screen for the guy in the corner, why can't the guys in the corners swap and try to get the defenders tangled up, etc. There are very simple things that can be done that don't require much practice time. Also instead of automatically having the 5 set the screen, we could have someone who is a threat to shoot or drive do it.

We need a Rick Jackson type big. Who isn't going to post up the entire game but can get the ball thrown down to him and score some points.

We could've tried to post up Lydon sometimes, or Mal/G if they got the right defender off a switch. Teams that switch off the high screen we should get a lot of mismatches if we use them right, which we usually don't.

I would like to see a better offense. If our offense was better with this zone we could win it all.

Better, but simple enough to keep the zone this good, and I agree.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I'm willing to wait until next season rolls around before making any takes or complaints about the offense. We weren't playing with a full and necessary deck of cards this season. We HAVE been in an offensive funk for the most part since Ennis arrived. Even the 2013 Final 4 team made my eyes bleed at times with their offensive offense. I'm hoping it's personnel related and just an unlucky stretch of poorly constructed rosters, defections, recruiting misses, etc.

One thing bothers me a bit, though. Often in player interviews usually after losses I hear that 'we need to play better on defense. The offense will take care of itself.' Something like that. Often JB cites the offense as the problem not the defense. Agreed. Well, to me, it often seems that the players have no idea what to do on offense or no 'plan B' when 'plan A' is taken away. The defense generally looks pretty sound and knows what is going on. So, how much do we actually practice offense?

 

[cuse522]

One thing bothers me a bit, though. Often in player interviews usually after losses I hear that 'we need to play better on defense. The offense will take care of itself.'

If you're generating turnovers and getting out and running, and doing the same off misses, then one can lead to the other. If not, short of pressing, you've got to execute in the halfcourt, which we never seem to be able to do without elite talent.

So, how much do we actually practice offense?

I'm guessing not that much relative to other teams, but I'm not in a position to give a concrete answer. Now, that said, the zone is much more advanced than it was like 8-12 years ago IMO, which ties into all of that and has fueled our tourney runs.

 

[upperdeck]

there are about 5 teams in bball actually running good offense.. everyone else just lets guys make plays and shoot. vill won because they isolated all night and made contested shots. unc got there because the bigs got off rebounds and then the final game they didnt but they made 3s, Ok looked great until the couldnt make shots and had no real offense to fall back on. Kansas ran offense thru Ellis and he struggled one game and they were dead.

its the same all over, but if we make FTs at just a modest 70 % the game is a 3-5 pt game down the stretch and anything can happen and thats on a night when our best player couldnt shoot straight.

 

[Alsacs]

there are about 5 teams in bball actually running good offense.. everyone else just lets guys make plays and shoot. vill won because they isolated all night and made contested shots. unc got there because the bigs got off rebounds and then the final game they didnt but they made 3s, Ok looked great until the couldnt make shots and had no real offense to fall back on. Kansas ran offense thru Ellis and he struggled one game and they were dead.

its the same all over, but if we make FTs at just a modest 70 % the game is a 3-5 pt game down the stretch and anything can happen and thats on a night when our best player couldnt shoot straight.

Off the top of my head.

Oklahoma, Iowa State, Indiana Iowa, Notre Dame, Duke, North Carolina, Michigan State are all top teams that have good offenses.

I really wish we watched Fran McCaffrey's offense from Iowa. It is not hard to duplicate with the athletes we can recruits.

They run, the motion, they pass, they target the weakest defender.

 

[Alsacs]

Our offense is lazy. It doesn't change even if the personnel isn't suited for it.

We run very few sets. We pick and roll and never pass to the picker. If this worked it wouldn't matter but it hasn't worked or been tweaked.

Our guards were awful in transition and so we stopped running.

 

[Alsacs]

offense is a problem for just about everyone. When we have a pt guard and a low post scorer, we are fine.

2o13 MCW with Rak Christmas
2014 Ennis with Rak Christmas

Our offense was subpar both years.

 

[SUFan44]

Our offense is lazy. It doesn't change even if the personnel isn't suited for it.

We run very few sets. We pick and roll and never pass to the picker. If this worked it wouldn't matter but it hasn't worked or been tweaked.

Our guards were awful in transition and so we stopped running.

Our basketball team has always excelled when in transition. This year's team did not excel in that area because we didn't have A) a center that could rebound effectively enough so that one of our guards could leak out and B) a guard that could make a good decision on the fast break consistently. Gbinije was decent but not as good as others have been in the past.

I think with Battle/Richardson/Howard, you have 3 guys who have the ability to take it coast to coast. And with Chukwu/Lydon/Roberson along the back line, those three should be able to gobble up more rebounds defensively so our guards can get some easy buckets when a three-pointer goes up and misses.

I agree with you fundamentally that our offense isn't all that great in the half court, but it can work if you have guys who are willing to share the ball and make the right play, while also having the right personnel. Look at 2009-10.

 

[dasher]

2o13 MCW with Rak Christmas
2014 Ennis with Rak Christmas

Our offense was subpar both years.

final four and 25-0 start. It couldn't have been too sub par. It comes back to players and style. We don't get points off of our press as often as other teams do. We could go 5 or 6 games and never press. We are slow. we don't get near the fast break points as other teams do. This year, we had no low post offense. It is really difficult scoring 5 on 5 for every team.

 

[SoBeCuse]

there are about 5 teams in bball actually running good offense.. everyone else just lets guys make plays and shoot. vill won because they isolated all night and made contested shots. unc got there because the bigs got off rebounds and then the final game they didnt but they made 3s, Ok looked great until the couldnt make shots and had no real offense to fall back on. Kansas ran offense thru Ellis and he struggled one game and they were dead.

its the same all over, but if we make FTs at just a modest 70 % the game is a 3-5 pt game down the stretch and anything can happen and thats on a night when our best player couldnt shoot straight.

That's really undersimplified generally and not true re: Villanova. Their off-ball motion and screening was exceptional. Ball didn't stick, every player on the floor making quick decisions and passes, etc. Even on the last play, Wright said on Sirius that Hart and Ochefu were screening on the other side of the floor for a primary option/play and that Jenkins was the last option there.