The ragging on Girard is a bit creepy

[CuseFaninVT]

As someone who has gotten killed for being critical of JG3, I'd break him down as follows:
Pros
-great shooter off the pass and when open, set and not fading or off balance
-great free throw shooter who hasn't always been great at the line at the clutch but came through last night
-good option late in the shot clock when everything breaks down as he can hit tough shots

Cons
-lousy ball handler who has trouble getting the ball over half court against a ACC level defender
-often guilty of taking plays off defensively with poor closeouts with no hands up and doesn't always run back on defense, there is no excuse for poor effort
-often poor shot selection and often early in the shot clock and insane heat checks. It feels like if he makes a shot we have to pay a heat check tax.
-dribbles the ball into the ground trying to beat guys off the dribble and ends up killing the shot clock and hurting our chances to get a quality scoring opportunity

Joe has been hurt also by JB not giving him breaks to save his legs and also help him handle his asthma. He also is a 2 in a one's body. As I've said before if he only took good shots and showed more hustle on defense, his other shortcomings would be overlooked and he would be far more popular and ultimately more effective. When he takes open shots with his feet set and body square he is an absolute weapon. But if you are going to compare him to Gerry, I don't recall Gerry ever giving questionable effort nor do I recall him turning the ball over as much as Joe does.

Love that heat check tax line. I will steal that shamelessly

 

[NKR1978]

It doesn't help that he's a "star" on the worst teams in living memory. But that fact is not his fault and he shouldn't get the abuse from the fans.

 

[OttoMets]

Joe's a good player who has been criminally misused for the entirety of his SU career. Put him on one of the squad's we had a decade ago and he's a beloved fan favorite Nick Resavy or Russ Deremer.

Maybe I'm taking you too literally, but whose minutes is Joe taking a decade ago? On a great Syracuse team he'd have some of the attributes of a fan favorite but people wouldn't ever see him play.

 

[SUMJF]

Joe Girard is a solid college basketball player.
He is not responsible for any of our issues on the court.
I would take a Joe Girard type guard on my team every single season.

 

[NKR1978]

Maybe I'm taking you too literally, but whose minutes is Joe taking a decade ago? On a great Syracuse team he'd have some of the attributes of a fan favorite but people wouldn't ever see him play.

10 years ago he'd have come in the last 5 minutes. Probably would have a game or two early where he went off for 20+ against Colgate or Bryant and everyone would have lamented that he didn't get the playing time he deserved.

That's probably an exaggeration. He would have been a solid 7 or 8 man on a lot of our good teams. 15-20 minutes more often than not.

 

[shandeezy7]

Maybe I'm taking you too literally, but whose minutes is Joe taking a decade ago? On a great Syracuse team he'd have some of the attributes of a fan favorite but people wouldn't ever see him play.

I don't know if I can agree with this. We're talking about a kid coming out of high school with offers from Duke, Michigan, Ohio State, Notre Dame, etc. I'm not saying he should've been a career 35 mpg guy like he has been, but I'm fairly confident he'd have found a decent amount of playing time even on some of our best teams.

 

[OttoMets]

I don't know if I can agree with this. We're talking about a kid coming out of high school with offers from Duke, Michigan, Ohio State, Notre Dame, etc. I'm not saying he should've been a career 35 mpg guy like he has been, but I'm fairly confident he'd have found a decent amount of playing time even on some of our best teams.

Maybe...but over whom?

I'm just thinking of Cooney redshirting in 2012 due to an abundance of riches and struggling to think of situational opportunities for playing time.

 

[OttoMets]

10 years ago he'd have come in the last 5 minutes. Probably would have a game or two early where he went off for 20+ against Colgate or Bryant and everyone would have lamented that he didn't get the playing time he deserved.

That's probably an exaggeration. He would have been a solid 7 or 8 man on a lot of our good teams. 15-20 minutes more often than not.

That's kind of where I am. "Dammit, Jim, if Cooney can drop 10 on Georgetown in the first half of a Big East semifinal, where was he when Triche and the other guy had dead legs during the conference season?" That kind of player.

 

[Nicknack]

Joe's a good player who has been criminally misused for the entirety of his SU career. Put him on one of the squad's we had a decade ago and he's a beloved fan favorite.

Absolutely. And not to defend people who have been really tough on Joe, but much of the frustration comes from him being misused and/or overused throughout his career. For example, two things that really bother me at times is too many minutes and bad shots at times (aka heat checks). Both of those things tie directly to Boeheim. Jim obviously controls minutes and allows him to take bad shots by not benching him when he does this like he would with other players.

 

[NKR1978]

That's kind of where I am. "Dammit, Jim, if Cooney can drop 10 on Georgetown in the first half of a Big East semifinal, where was he when Triche and the other guy had dead legs during the conference season?" That kind of player.

Dead legs was the hallmark of the late season 2013 team.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Dead legs was the hallmark of the late season 2013 team.

One of those players had a back injury that didn't come up until after the season.

That said I think Girard would have been incredibly useful the following year when Cooney couldn't hit the broadside of a barn the last month of the season.

 

[Brooky03]

I don’t think we’re supposed to use that word at all, but I’d go with 2 zs

I get in trouble for that a lot

 

[shandeezy7]

Maybe...but over whom?

I'm just thinking of Cooney redshirting in 2012 due to an abundance of riches and struggling to think of situational opportunities for playing time.

I suppose that exact squad you're talking about would've been really difficult to find playing time on, especially if we're saying as a freshman. 2 upperclassmen guards with 2 future NBA guards on the roster. Would be tough for anyone to crack that guard rotation, even a 5 star kid.

 

[NKR1978]

One of those players had a back injury that didn't come up until after the season.

That said I think Girard would have been incredibly useful the following year when Cooney couldn't hit the broadside of a barn the last month of the season.

Cooney was a big strong athlete (despite Dana O'Neil claiming he'd be picked last in gym class) who played really good defense. He was truly great in the zone by the 2016 Tournament.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Cooney was a big strong athlete (despite Dana O'Neil claiming he'd be picked last in gym class) who played really good defense. He was truly great in the zone by the 2016 Tournament.

I don’t disagree he played good defense, but we had no one to go to when he got cold during his career unless it was Ron Patterson or early career Frank Howard.

 

[OrangeDW]

Maybe I'm taking you too literally, but whose minutes is Joe taking a decade ago? On a great Syracuse team he'd have some of the attributes of a fan favorite but people wouldn't ever see him play.

Yeah, there’s not a lot of them. I do think he could’ve really helped the 2014 team though, for one example. Games where Cooney wasn’t hitting, and the paint was packed, maybe he could’ve came in and knocked some shots down and got us going.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Absolutely. And not to defend people who have been really tough on Joe, but much of the frustration comes from him being misused and/or overused throughout his career. For example, two things that really bother me at times is too many minutes and bad shots at times (aka heat checks). Both of those things tie directly to Boeheim. Jim obviously controls minutes and allows him to take bad shots by not benching him when he does this like he would with other players.

And from all reports out of high school, his reputation was exactly what we see from bad Joe today. Little effort on the defensive end and way too many heat check shots. That should have been coached out of him years ago, regardless of who sat behind him on the bench. But that’s not joes fault.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Absolutely. And not to defend people who have been really tough on Joe, but much of the frustration comes from him being misused and/or overused throughout his career. For example, two things that really bother me at times is too many minutes and bad shots at times (aka heat checks). Both of those things tie directly to Boeheim. Jim obviously controls minutes and allows him to take bad shots by not benching him when he does this like he would with other players.

This has been JB's MO for all his lead guys for decades. He'd rather get an off balance 20 plus footer from his leading scorer than run offense for someone who might average 6 ppg.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

And the same people who call him "the 3rd Boeheim brother". I never understood why people can be so critical.

Keyboard toughs!

 

[Oakland]

Both on here and twitter and I myself have been on him for not hustling in the past, but it really doesn't seem to be a big problem lately. It's a bit creepy some of the hate people have for him. He's not a perfect player by any means, but outside of that stretch earlier in the year he's been pretty good and the fact of the matter is he saved us last night down the stretch.

Maybe he can teach the forwards how to rebound.

Some popular twitter handles really need to learn they don't speak for everyone.

I mentioned this in the game thread last night.

 

[cuseallday]

My biggest frustration is that some fans love to rag on Joe when he struggles, and he does struggle sometimes. But when he has a great performance, it's crickets. Or when Joe plays well, some fans will say, well, Joe is just doing his job, so I won't give him any praise, but I reserve the right to trash him when he has a bad game. After last night's game, I had some fans comment on the site that I run that Joe had five turnovers and was awful. Yeah, he had five turnovers, but the team had 15 turnovers, and Joe had 28 points. Some folks are just never happy lol.

 

[Oakland]

Joe Girard is a true Orange. Glad to have him. Only thing I would want is for him to get rid of his " HEAT CHECK MOMENTUM KILLER 30 FOOT SHOTS" Those two in the 2nd half cost me the 2nd half spread and the SU over 73.5. LOL.

His Junior season he had better stats and Cooney as a Senior. This year he is even better.

GO CUSE.

As I mentioned last night in the thread, they were more like 24 feet, and he makes a lot of those.

 

[Newhouser]

Maybe I'm taking you too literally, but whose minutes is Joe taking a decade ago? On a great Syracuse team he'd have some of the attributes of a fan favorite but people wouldn't ever see him play.

He would have played every game where we were in FT shooting contest in the final 3 minutes.

 

[Orangezoo]

Louisville did one thing right last night and that was pressure the ball. As a result, and I don't necessarily agree with it, JB ran Judah and Joe for 40 mins each against a 2-12 team. No Copeland at all. Not even letting Taylor help at the 2 for a minute.

 

[Newhouser]

Cooney was a big strong athlete (despite Dana O'Neil claiming he'd be picked last in gym class) who played really good defense. He was truly great in the zone by the 2016 Tournament.

The steal blown call against Gonzaga was a zone clinic.