The ragging on Girard is a bit creepy

[MikeSU02]

My biggest frustration is that some fans love to rag on Joe when he struggles, and he does struggle sometimes. But when he has a great performance, it's crickets. Or when Joe plays well, some fans will say, well, Joe is just doing his job, so I won't give him any praise, but I reserve the right to trash him when he has a bad game. After last night's game, I had some fans comment on the site that I run that Joe had five turnovers and was awful. Yeah, he had five turnovers, but the team had 15 turnovers, and Joe had 28 points. Some folks are just never happy lol.

That isn't everyone, but that's neither here nor there, really. Some fans will always say some things. When you have a large pool of people commenting, that's always going to happen. It's normal. Literally.

The kid takes the most shots. You take the most shots all the time, you are going to be judged differently. That's just the way it works. Especially if you are looking for praise for big aggregate numbers without efficiency being incorporated.

It's why Kobe was so adamant that he didn't give a rat's you know what about his shot count. But it comes with responsibility.

My biggest issue right now is Chris Bell, but guess what, Joe is still shooting the most, so Joe is going to have the most attention on him. That's the way it works because we still measure people like that, while smart teams measure in efficiency.

He's started over 100 games for Syracuse and has a career FG% of 37%. He is who he is. Some good games, some bad, some in between.

And it's easy to say that we needed everything he gave us last night because it's measured against the unknown. If he rested more and the rotation was different, do we win by more? Well, we can prob make some educated guesses based on data, but no one has time for that when you're evaluating stuff in real time in a simple box score.

[EDIT: I want to be clear, I think Joe has been fine this year for his role and where we are as a program.]

 

[jncuse]

As some may know I am a huge Toronto Raptors - they have Fred Van Vleet as a point guard who is somewhat similar to Joe in style. The level of sheer hate he gets on Ratpors message boards (not just dislike) is hard to fathom at times. Attacks go beyond just his poor attributes and get very personal and well beyond what you see here. Sad really. I am fine with going hard at one's weaknesses but there is a line for what is a weakness and what is personal -- and that line should be a bit lower for a college player than an NBA player.

My conclusion is that fans tend to dislike short, unathletic, shot happy point guards - when things go bad, or they are off, they are the first type of players to get railed on, and blamed.

Fred Van Vleet is short, unathletic, shot happy like Joe (a better defender though) In both situations the players like to shoot a lot, but are also at time asked to create when the clock is going down due to poor roster construction or lack of talent to do that. They are not good at it, but somebody has to do it and they both are happy to do so it seems.

 

[Eric15]

The steal blown call against Gonzaga was a zone clinic.

That Gonzaga game was one of the most exciting SU tourney games ever, but it almost gets forgotten about due to the UVA comeback two days later.

 

[two3zone]

Joe was our best player yesterday by far, outside of a couple low IQ shots/plays he played a great game. One of if not the best game I’ve seen him play here.

 

[Orangezoo]

That Gonzaga game was one of the most exciting SU tourney games ever, but it almost gets forgotten about due to the UVA comeback two days later.

And the damn youtube replay cuts off the last 1:30, one of the best parts of the whole game.

 

[Orangezoo]

Joe was our best player yesterday by far, outside of a couple low IQ shots/plays he played a great game. One of if not the best game I’ve seen him play here.

Yep. It would have been great had Judah, Benny and Jesse joined him in playing well. I know this isn't a Benny thread but last night was the perfect game against a sloppy opponent that provides open shots and driving lanes in droves to step up and cement himself as the best forward and he dropped another dud.

 

[Dinkyspond]

I like Joe, he's a good college player and had a good career at SYR. I hope comes back for year 5 too in Orange.

 

[shandeezy7]

And the damn youtube replay cuts off the last 1:30, one of the best parts of the whole game.

Luckily, the last few mins exclusively is available:

 

[Scooch]

Maybe I'm taking you too literally, but whose minutes is Joe taking a decade ago? On a great Syracuse team he'd have some of the attributes of a fan favorite but people wouldn't ever see him play.

Joe can knock down threes. He’s a very good shooter. That would be his role. I imagine he could grab 6-8 minutes a game from the guard rotation back then, to spot up and fire. Honestly my comment was fairly off the cuff, but most teams can always use an ace shooter.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Joe’s a major weapon with a lead down the stretch due to his foul shooting. He’s been responsible for a lot of wins down the stretch of games because of his foul shooting. Just get it to him and let him get fouled. He’s as good a rebounder from the guard position that we’ve had, especially for his size. He gets his hands on it and it’s his. I wish we could say the same for our forwards.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

As some may know I am a huge Toronto Raptors - they have Fred Van Vleet as a point guard who is somewhat similar to Joe in style. The level of sheer hate he gets on Ratpors message boards (not just dislike) is hard to fathom at times. Attacks go beyond just his poor attributes and get very personal and well beyond what you see here. Sad really. I am fine with going hard at one's weaknesses but there is a line for what is a weakness and what is personal -- and that line should be a bit lower for a college player than an NBA player.

My conclusion is that fans tend to dislike short, unathletic, shot happy point guards - when things go bad, or they are off, they are the first type of players to get railed on, and blamed.

Fred Van Vleet is short, unathletic, shot happy like Joe (a better defender though) In both situations the players like to shoot a lot, but are also at time asked to create when the clock is going down due to poor roster construction or lack of talent to do that. They are not good at it, but somebody has to do it and they both are happy to do so it seems.

Loved Van Vleet in college and every time I see him it seems like he makes some dagger shots.

 

[richmondcuse03]

I have a hard time hating on any Syracuse wearing the Orange and playing their heart out. Now Duke players….fair game.

Can’t question Joe’s work ethic or desire to win, even if it’s not obvious to some. Kids won his whole life. He came here to win. He’s been short changed a bit by the surrounding cast. In prior eras, he would have been beloved almost as much as Gerry

 

[hoopsupstate]

I remember before the season people were worried that Joe would be putting up 25 shots a game. I said we would be fortunate if Joe could put up 20 shots a game. If he takes 4-5 bad shots it’s still a lot better than anyone else shooting on this team. He’s getting really good coming of Jesse’s top of circle screen and the hand off for the jumper. I’m curious to see how Mintz handles Virginia‘s 40 year old point guard.

 

[Jake]

Joe and GMac are fairly comparable players as seniors. Gerry was a much better distributor and was a better defender in the zone, but Joe is a more accurate shooter.

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Let’s see how close those shooting percentages get after joe goes through conference season. Wouldnt surprise me to see Joe end up around 34% from 3.

Joe has the luxury of playing off the ball. which should help his 3pt pct. Gerry had to play point - which absolutely helped his assist numbers. Gerry was dinged up pretty badly his sr year as well.

Having said that, Joe is who Joe is. I think his effort has been much better recently and I think JB read him the riot act a few games ago and he has given better effort.

I think almost everyone on this team, Joe included, hangs their head after a bad play.
Judah might be the biggest violator. They have to fix that and hustle back.

We’re going to have to live with the heat checks and a few more blocked layups.

Joe is our best shooter and can score when he gets open. There’s no one on our team I’d want to take an open 3 than him.

As someone said, he’s not top 10 in my list of grievances on this team.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

In prior eras, he would have been beloved almost as much as Gerry

Gerry not nearly as beloved when he was here as he is now. He caught a ton of flack..

as did a lot of other players: Andy, Scoop, Triche, Greene, Dion...just to name a few...

 

[cto]

“Getting?”

He’s the most hated starter I’ve witnessed since I joined this forum a decade ago or whenever that was.

You obviously were not here during the Craig Forth years. Craig was a four-year starter, the center on our 2003 National Championship team (and an important contributor in the NC game) and a four-year Academic All-American who, as a well-regarded educator, continues to bring credit to SU.

In spite of all this, he was constantly vilified on this forum for being slow and "unathletic." It was seriously disgusting.

 

[Eric15]

You obviously were not here during the Craig Forth years. Craig was a four-year starter, the center on our 2003 National Championship team (and an important contributor in the NC game) and a four-year Academic All-American who, as a well-regarded educator, continues to bring credit to SU.

In spite of all this, he was constantly vilified on this forum for being slow and "unathletic." It was seriously disgusting.

100% agree. The two most abused SU players in my lifetime were Craig Forth and Troy Nunes. Both good guys who deserved none of it.

 

[richmondcuse03]

You obviously were not here during the Craig Forth years. Craig was a four-year starter, the center on our 2003 National Championship team (and an important contributor in the NC game) and a four-year Academic All-American who, as a well-regarded educator, continues to bring credit to SU.

In spite of all this, he was constantly vilified on this forum for being slow and "unathletic." It was seriously disgusting.

agree. Though coach didn’t help the Craig Forth situation. I’d be curious to hear from Craig now if he learned from it and appreciated or still doesn’t like JB. I was at quite a few practices where Craig would mutter under his breath expletives about coach, including one where Coach kicked him out and made him run laps in Manley.

I’m sure Jb was pushing him but there weren’t too many more likable athletes on the hill than Craig during my time there. Extremely hard working, smart guy who busted his ass. Never the most athletic (he was gifted with height) but was a good contributor for four years. And never caused an issue. I have a soft spot for guys like that.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

You obviously were not here during the Craig Forth years. Craig was a four-year starter, the center on our 2003 National Championship team (and an important contributor in the NC game) and a four-year Academic All-American who, as a well-regarded educator, continues to bring credit to SU.

In spite of all this, he was constantly vilified on this forum for being slow and "unathletic." It was seriously disgusting.

People who didn’t appreciate what he did for the team, truly don’t understand basketball. He was always in the right spot, and ran the defense. He set the screens and kept the spacing so everyone else could do their job. A good team requires unselfish role players.
Jeremy would come in and do the things Craig wasn’t good at. They are a great tandem.

 

[Brooky03]

IRL, I yelled at Scoop more than any player.

I liked Forth, just not when he missed layups.

 

[shandeezy7]

People who didn’t appreciate what he did for the team, truly don’t understand basketball. He was always in the right spot, and ran the defense. He set the screens and kept the spacing so everyone else could do their job. A good team requires unselfish role players.
Jeremy would come in and do the things Craig wasn’t good at. They are a great tandem.

Imagine Forth needing to cover both corners from the Center spot like today's 2-3 requires? Thank god for Hakim Warrick lol.

 

[Jake]

IRL, I yelled at Scoop more than any player.

I liked Forth, just not when he missed layups.

I yelled at both….during a lot of wins. I don’t yell much anymore…and that’s not a reflection of maturity.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

IRL, I yelled at Scoop more than any player.

I liked Forth, just not when he missed layups.

Scoop is one of my All Time Favorites for his story, beginning-to-end. Great growth as a young man and as a player.

 

[Brooky03]

Scoop is one of my All Time Favorites for his story, beginning-to-end. Great growth as a young man and as a player.

The most “no, no, no, yes” moments of any player.

I did like his attitude. Usually had a smile on his face. Elite at leading fast breaks

 

[in StPete]

I like Joe, he's a good college player and had a good career at SYR. I hope comes back for year 5 too in Orange.

Do we know if he plans on coming back for his 5th year or he’s said he’s gone after this season?