There has been some concern by some that

[Fly Rodder]

Next year will bear it out.

I would rather we didn't find out. But Que sera, sera.

 

[BillSU]

Entirely off topic, but it's odd to me that Bouie didn't make the NBA and was a second round pick while Danny Schayes was selected 13th overall. Bouie put up much better numbers here and they were the same size. I know Danny had a long and lucrative career, but I would have though Bouie would have lasted a long time in the league based on his size and college numbers.

Answer:

From orangehoops.org:

He was the 34th pick of the 1980 NBA draft, taken in the second round by the Dallas Mavericks. When contract negotiations with the Mavericks did not work out, Bouie held to a threat he had made during process, and went to Italy to play basketball. With his talent and size, Bouie became an immediate star in the Italian league.

Bouie enjoyed the quiet and slow lifestyle of rural New York where he grew up, and Italy suited him well. He ended up loving the lifestyle in Italy, and never​

considered coming back to try the NBA. Bouie would play thirteen seasons in Italy (two for Scavolini Resaro, seven for Riunite Reggio Emilia, and two for Clear Contu), where he was considered a legend, and was team captain for most of his career. He holds the league record for career field goal percentage, and was a five time all-star. He led his team to the European Championship for the 1991-92 season. He also played one year in Oreste, Spain.​

 

[kingtidge]

Duke scored 88 points.
We were close due to offense

Adding Sy to arguably the worst zone defense JAB ever trotted out in his 40+ year history was certainly never going to be game-changer for team defense, but he has the one thing you can't coach - speed.

Fast, athletic players is what we are missing and what successful iterations of the Zone usually had in the past (at least sans the center position)

 

[Jake]

Duke scored 88 points.
We were close due to offense

Duke is elite offensively. I think the point is that stats without context can be misleading.

 

[djcon57]

Adding Sy to arguably the worst zone defense JAB ever trotted out in his 40+ year history was certainly never going to be game-changer for team defense, but he has the one thing you can't coach - speed.

Fast, athletic players is what we are missing and what successful iterations of the Zone usually had in the past (at least sans the center position)

Yeah I just disagree. He has speed compared to Jimmy and Buddy.

The key to the zone in the past is fast players, true, it's also length. Symir at 6'3. Joe at 6'1 allegedly.
That would be the smallest starting back court I can remember.

 

[djcon57]

Duke is elite offensively. I think the pint is that stats without context can be misleading.

You think a season worth of stats can be misleading?

Not going to agree on this one.

 

[Jake]

Yeah I just disagree. He has speed compared to Jimmy and Buddy.

The key to the zone in the past is fast players, true, it's also length. Symir at 6'3. Joe at 6'1 allegedly.
That would be the smallest starting back court I can remember.

The key to the zone is length length and more length. We recruited that way for 20 years. We took slower players and sacrificed lateral foot speed for length.

Guys like Shumpert, Hak, Donte green, southerland, F Howard etc. All below average speed, but long arms and jumpers.

 

[kingtidge]

Yeah I just disagree. He has speed compared to Jimmy and Buddy.

The key to the zone in the past is fast players, true, it's also length. Symir at 6'3. Joe at 6'1 allegedly.
That would be the smallest starting back court I can remember.

Well, I think we're generally agreeing then... Girard is very small for a P5 2-guard...

Sy is fine at 6-3 as a pure PG, tho, and while I wouldn't say he has "elite" speed, it's definitely above average IMO. He was one of the only players on our team this year that could actually go around defenders consistently with quickness.

 

[MikeSU02]

Duke is elite offensively. I think the point is that stats without context can be misleading.

The reason to use advanced stats is for the additional context within the numbers so you don't rely on purely aggregates.

Sy wasn't good, objectively, over the course of the season, backed up by stats. I'm actually surprised anyone is claiming the eye test was good, honestly.

Maybe he gets better, maybe he doesn't. But I would put money down that he and Joe will likely be on par a pairing as Buddy and Joe.

 

[cuseincincy]

My concern is how we address the portal. I want 2 guys, regardless of position, that could play for either Houston or Texas Tech. I don't see one on the roster. The only recruit I could see either of those places is Brown. And as far as outgoing portal Joe, Jesse and Benny are the key keeps. I haven't given up hope (expectation?) that Benny will be the best player on this team before he leaves.
This is no disrespect to any other player. The portal is a new world and I expect every player to consider the portal every year because they can. Bringing in only players you previously recruited is clearly a recipe for failure and a failure to read the situation. Eg. If Charlie Moore comes to SU instead of Symir SU is likely in the tournament. Assuming the coach realized his lack of PG. Again, no disrespect to Symir but Moore was a double digit scorer 4 times in his career and Hon Mention All ACC. Symir is none of those things.

 

[MikeSU02]

It's not a big deal - why do we need top 100 kids? - we've been told we have a "sneaky" good class - yawn

I'm all for a solid class that has a large quantity. One out of the five will out perform his rankings. Hopefully two others will be solid four year guys and can contribute down the road. I would expect two to transfer out.

There is value in those classes.

But not where we are now. And there is no balance.

We need to level up in talent across the board at every single position looking forward, assuming this is Jesse's last year.

 

[Jake]

You think a season worth of stats can be misleading?

Not going to agree on this one.

Absolutely…..stats are product of ability, strategy and circumstance to a degree. They give a sense of perspective, but they are not the end all be all.

The eye test - which you mocked - has significant value. I see Buddy not even trying to close out on shooters or leaking out quickly. Not rotating properly. Sy has intrinsically better ability to cut of lanes and keep people in front of him. As a coach I know Sy will be a positive piece to a defense, not a guy I have to hide or compensate for like Buddy.

No offense, but I think people who quote stats as absolutes miss the bigger picture of what’s happening on the floor.

It’s like looking back at stats from this year and saying “Joe is a better shooter than Buddy”….which someone will do. They don’t take into context what the other team was trying to do.

Everyone put their best defender on Buddy and chose to give open looks to Joe if they had to. It’s not going to be the same next year, when the 6’4” defender is up Joe’s rectum at half court and Sy is getting open looks from 3.

 

[Melancer46]

I'm all for a solid class that has a large quantity. One out of the five will out perform his rankings. Hopefully two others will be solid four year guys and can contribute down the road. I would expect two to transfer out.

There is value in those classes.

But not where we are now. And there is no balance.

We need to level up in talent across the board at every single position looking forward, assuming this is Jesse's last year.

Classes like that work really well when you're supplementing the talent you already have on board. Not so great when that talent isn't here yet.

 

[Orangezoo]

Absolutely…..stats are product of ability, strategy and circumstance to a degree. They give a sense of perspective, but they are not the end all be all.

The eye test - which you mocked - has significant value. I see Buddy not even trying to close out on shooters or leaking out quickly. Not rotating properly. Sy has intrinsically better ability to cut of lanes and keep people in front of him. As a coach I know Sy will be a positive piece to a defense, not a guy I have to hide or compensate for like Buddy.

No offense, but I think people who quote stats as absolutes miss the bigger picture of what’s happening on the floor.

It’s like looking back at stats from this year and saying “Joe is a better shooter than Buddy”….which someone will do. They don’t take into context what the other team was trying to do.

Everyone put their best defender on Buddy and chose to give open looks to Joe if they had to. It’s not going to be the same next year, when the 6’4” defender is up Joe’s rectum at half court and Sy is getting open looks from 3.

While I think the stats can be undervalued in such discussions as well there are some good points here. His ability to recover in the zone was very visibly present. His coordination and chemistry with his teammates was definitely lacking at times which certainly could have played a role in the numbers. If he could play a whole season like he did the end of the year I would suspect better numbers... I think..

 

[djcon57]

Absolutely…..stats are product of ability, strategy and circumstance to a degree. They give a sense of perspective, but they are not the end all be all.

The eye test - which you mocked - has significant value. I see Buddy not even trying to close out on shooters or leaking out quickly. Not rotating properly. Sy has intrinsically better ability to cut of lanes and keep people in front of him. As a coach I know Sy will be a positive piece to a defense, not a guy I have to hide or compensate for like Buddy.

No offense but your eye test is YOUR eye test. That's the point. What you see might be different from what I see from what Jim Boeheim sees vs what Shaka Smart saw. I never said it's the end all, be all. Stats are what they are.

It's not hard to get why some would poo-poo stats if it doesn't agree with your agenda. We saw it nonstop with Kadary vs Joe. I've learned NOT to do that. I wanted Symir to be as good as Kadary was as far as a defensive stopper in the zone. He wasn't, he isn't, and if he's rolled out 30+ mins a game next year, this will be a subpar defensive team

 

[MikeSU02]

Absolutely…..stats are product of ability, strategy and circumstance to a degree. They give a sense of perspective, but they are not the end all be all.

The eye test - which you mocked - has significant value. I see Buddy not even trying to close out on shooters or leaking out quickly. Not rotating properly. Sy has intrinsically better ability to cut of lanes and keep people in front of him. As a coach I know Sy will be a positive piece to a defense, not a guy I have to hide or compensate for like Buddy.

No offense, but I think people who quote stats as absolutes miss the bigger picture of what’s happening on the floor.

It’s like looking back at stats from this year and saying “Joe is a better shooter than Buddy”….which someone will do. They don’t take into context what the other team was trying to do.

Everyone put their best defender on Buddy and chose to give open looks to Joe if they had to. It’s not going to be the same next year, when the 6’4” defender is up Joe’s rectum at half court and Sy is getting open looks from 3.

Jake, please take this post with all sincerity that I love ya as a poster and have for the two decades I've been on this board, but...

The best part of all this is we'll see when the season starts. I had similar push back about predictions for this year. So we can see where this bears out.

Again, I can't believe I'm the Buddy defender, but Buddy was our gravitational force on offense. Of course he was going to take defensive possessions off. JB was asking him to shoot 17 times a game.

I see Sy as a guy who cannot stop passes over the top, cannot contest shots from bigger shooters, who doesn't have good wingspan to cut off passing lanes even if his lateral movement is better and first step is quicker.

No offense, but I think people who appropriate the backup QB logic to actual prowess and ability miss the clear definition of what is happening on the floor.

The best we can likely hope for is that Sy is a better rebounder on long rebounds off long shots than Buddy.

Those same stats that everyone guffawed at last year was screaming from the top of the mountain how bad we would be this year and only some of us were attuned to it.

 

[kcsu]

3

chase J and Cole or Frank

 

[Melancer46]

chase J and Cole or Frank

He specified already that he doesn't know the status of Cole, so he's not one of the 3 but theoretically could be a 4th.

 

[kcsu]

I don't know about Mintz. I'm doubtful though. I really want him here.

 

[Jake]

Jake, please take this post with all sincerity that I love ya as a poster and have for the two decades I've been on this board, but...

The best part of all this is we'll see when the season starts. I had similar push back about predictions for this year. So we can see where this bears out.

Again, I can't believe I'm the Buddy defender, but Buddy was our gravitational force on offense. Of course he was going to take defensive possessions off. JB was asking him to shoot 17 times a game.

I see Sy as a guy who cannot stop passes over the top, cannot contest shots from bigger shooters, who doesn't have good wingspan to cut off passing lanes even if his lateral movement is better and first step is quicker.

No offense, but I think people who appropriate the backup QB logic to actual prowess and ability miss the clear definition of what is happening on the floor.

The best we can likely hope for is that Sy is a better rebounder on long rebounds off long shots than Buddy.

Those same stats that everyone guffawed at last year was screaming from the top of the mountain how bad we would be this year and only some of us were attuned to it.

We disagree. But I am by no means advocating Sy is a better player than Buddy….and frankly this years team was the worst defensively in JBs tenure. Arguing Buddy Vs Sy defensively is like arguing who had better deck chairs on the titanic.

But I still think from what I saw this year. Sy offers more on the defensive end, regardless of advanced stats.

Next years team is going to have its own issues defensively as long as Joe and Cole are getting major minutes.

Gotta hope we improve at the 4…

 

[MikeSU02]

We disagree. But I am by no means advocating Sy is a better player than Buddy….and frankly this years team was the worst defensively in JBs tenure. Arguing Buddy Vs Sy defensively is like arguing who had better deck chairs on the titanic.

But I still think from what I saw this year. Sy offers more on the defensive end, regardless of advanced stats.

Next years team is going to have its own issues defensively as long as Joe and Cole are getting major minutes.

Gotta hope we improve at the 4…

Agree with a lot of that. And, listen, if Sy outperforms my expectations, I will gladly eat crow and be ecstatic for the team and happy for him.

 

[miamicuse]

Not so sure it's Frank, could be Benny.

 

[OrangeDW]

I may have missed it because it’s a long thread, but have we talked about Torrence’s capacity to improve defensively?

He’s reasonably quick and athletic and while he’s not “lengthy”, he also isn’t overly small(like Joe or Flynn). He tries hard. Seems conceivable that in his second year in the system good chance he’ll be a better defender? Just tightening up those rotations and instincts a little bit can make a difference.

Guys who are just flat out too slow or too small or both would seem to have a much lower defensive “ceiling” no matter how many years they play here. Torrence would seem to me to have a higher ceiling on defense than them, and may be a decent defender next year?

 

[djcon57]

I may have missed it because it’s a long thread, but have we talked about Torrence’s capacity to improve defensively?

He’s reasonably quick and athletic and while he’s not “lengthy”, he also isn’t overly small(like Joe or Flynn). He tries hard. Seems conceivable that in his second year in the system good chance he’ll be a better defender? Just tightening up those rotations and instincts a little bit can make a difference.

Guys who are just flat out too slow or too small or both would seem to have a much lower defensive “ceiling” no matter how many years they play here. Torrence would seem to me to have a higher ceiling on defense than them, and may be a decent defender next year?

Nothing to disagree with here. I just don’t ever see him being an elite defender. So add that in with positively no jump shot whatsoever. I just don’t think he should be pegged as the definite starter and most mins. Obvious contributor.

 

[orangefog]

I may have missed it because it’s a long thread, but have we talked about Torrence’s capacity to improve defensively?

He’s reasonably quick and athletic and while he’s not “lengthy”, he also isn’t overly small(like Joe or Flynn). He tries hard. Seems conceivable that in his second year in the system good chance he’ll be a better defender? Just tightening up those rotations and instincts a little bit can make a difference.

Guys who are just flat out too slow or too small or both would seem to have a much lower defensive “ceiling” no matter how many years they play here. Torrence would seem to me to have a higher ceiling on defense than them, and may be a decent defender next year?

That's where I stand. It's not that I don't care about advanced statistics, but Symir has the tools to be a much better defender than Buddy. Buddy's range was tiny. Symir should be able to cover MUCH more ground and play defense more aggressively than Buddy.