What Will It Take...

[Brooky03]

Um just because his replacement was botched doesn't mean he shouldn't have been fired.

Also, as has been pointed out myriad times here JB is the CEO. He owns the sanctions, please spare me the "bad luck" take.

There's a big difference between accountability and responsibility that is confused far too often. I struggle to blame a man for violations that he couldn't have stopped from happening, in some cases because laws literally forbade him from even asking. But why not just go ahead and drink the 'culture of compliance' koolaid the NCAA whipped up just like we drank the 'student-athlete' koolaid.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I think Sidibe can be that guy, but we still don't have enough shooting. Literally nobody in the pros or college plays two bigs together anymore that can't shoot and we still do every game.

Oh I agree we need more shooting for sure. We just can’t get any PF-C type to make a damn post move or not walk. Hopefully Sidibe like you say but I worry about his health and he MUST get stronger lower body.

 

[Cusefan0307]

You were stating (or implying) the rule, I was stating the exceptions. Virginia doesn't have great post scorers but they do often still work inside out because their frontcourt players, at the very least, can't be left unguarded like ours, and they're actually skilled passers. Bennett is doing a great job with that program. Villanova puts 19 guards on the court at one time and they all let it fly. It's worked in the NCAAT when they've stayed hot from deep, it's killed them in the NCAAT when they go cold. Nova has an inflated record from playing in a midmajor conference, but I'd think they'd manage a 4th place finish in the ACC this year. Good team.

Remember that time UNC won a National Championship with 3 point shooting just as bad as ours is this season?

Yes. We aren't UNC. We don't shoot 60 percent on post ups and run. We need shooting to spread the floor. We also need kids who can pass. Outside of Dolezaj and Howard we have neither.

 

[Brooky03]

Yes. We aren't UNC. We don't shoot 60 percent on post ups and run. We need shooting to spread the floor. We also need kids who can pass. Outside of Dolezaj and Howard we have neither.

You think we need shooting. I think we need a legitimate interior scorer or two. We're both right. If we just recruit big guys who can score down low and couple them with guards who can't shoot, we'll lose a bunch. If we put a bunch of shooters on the court with no inside scoring threat (like we had last season), we'll lose a bunch.

 

[OttoMets]

But it won't be. We'll go like 25-7 and flame out in the second round of the NCAA tournament when we face a hot shooting team. I'm with TinyManInside on this one. Next season is not going to be vintage 2012 34-3 dominance.

Honestly, if that's the result I'd grade next year a solid A and be confident that Boeheim's fully capable as a 74-year-old. It wouldn't be nearly as good as some people hope (because everyone's overvaluing our recruits and assuming that they'll play well together, as usual), but that'd be our best regular season in five years.

It's the 11-loss season and ACC mediocrity that I fear we'll experience again.

 

[Cusefan0307]

You think we need shooting. I think we need a legitimate interior scorer or two. We're both right. If we just recruit big guys who can score down low and couple them with guards who can't shoot, we'll lose a bunch. If we put a bunch of shooters on the court with no inside scoring threat (like we had last season), we'll lose a bunch.

Lydon was pretty good in the post last year. We hardly ever passed to him. You can argue he passed up open looks on the perimeter, but he was fine down low. It's easier to win in this era without a post threat than it is shooting and for all the problems we had last year the main reason we stunk was defense when we couldn't stop BC/St Johns or Georgetown early in the year.

 

[HOFCeluck]

There's a big difference between accountability and responsibility that is confused far too often. I struggle to blame a man for violations that he couldn't have stopped from happening, in some cases because laws literally forbade him from even asking. But why not just go ahead and drink the 'culture of compliance' koolaid the NCAA whipped up just like we drank the 'student-athlete' koolaid.

That's a weak take from people who go out of their way to deify Jim Boeheim..

What could he have done? Oh, I don't know. Maybe start by making sure his players got drug tested and not complain about it to Darryl Gross?

FFS it's HIS program that he all but built from the ground up. Id think he'd show a LITTLE attention to detail with this stuff. And that's before throwing in the "minor detail" of already being sanctioned!

 

[Cusefan0307]

Honestly, if that's the result I'd grade next year a solid A and be confident that Boeheim's fully capable as a 74-year-old. It wouldn't be nearly as good as some people hope (because everyone's overvaluing our recruits and assuming that they'll play well together, as usual), but that'd be our best regular season in five years.

It's the 11-loss season and ACC mediocrity that I fear we'll experience again.

Darius Bazley is ranked in the same spot as Jaren Jackson Jr, Jonathan Isaac, and Tyus Jones. All of those guys were one and dones. Two were/will be lottery picks. He isn't overvalued.

Carey is ranked about where Kevin Huerter was ranked.

They should both come in and provide immediate impacts.

 

[orangemass]

Will we have more than 3 guys that can score next year?

 

[Brooky03]

Lydon was pretty good in the post last year. We hardly ever passed to him. You can argue he passed up open looks on the perimeter, but he was fine down low. It's easier to win in this era without a post threat than it is shooting and for all the problems we had last year the main reason we stunk was defense when we couldn't stop BC/St Johns or Georgetown early in the year.

Which would win us more games next season:

- Arinze Onuaku in his college prime in place of Chukwu?
or
- James Southerland in his college prime in place of Brissett?

I tried to stick with specialists because if we're arguing that we need well-rounded players who can also shoot, then we're not even really arguing. Onuaku was primarily a post scoring specialist. Okay defender and rebounder but scoring in the paint was his contribution. Southerland shot 3's. Okay defender, okay rebounder. I went with Forward becaue that's where I think it's easiest to get an extra shooter on the court, but if you would rather go with a Guard, pick a former Cuse guard who was something of a 3 point specialist. Junior year Rautins perhaps.

I obviously think a guy like prime Onuaku would take the team to the next level. Unless my example sucks, I'd assume you'd rather have Southerland.

 

[OttoMets]

Darius Bazley is ranked in the same spot as Jaren Jackson Jr, Jonathan Isaac, and Tyus Jones. All of those guys were one and dones. Two were/will be lottery picks. He isn't overvalued.

Carey is ranked about where Kevin Huerter was ranked.

They should both come in and provide immediate impacts.

Overvalued in the sense that people on this board think they're automatic program-savers. (The history around here is overheated...Dolezaj was Keith Van Horn, Chukwu's Gobert, and Andrew White and John Gillon were positively certain to lead a wire-to-wire top-ten Final Four team.)

It takes so much more that a great talent (or even five talents) to make a very good college basketball team. (I know you know this, just restating for effect.) And it's even more difficult for a program on such shaky footing.

Beyond that, I'm perennially skeptical of recruiting rankings. Hopefully Bazley's a star. Maybe he's just going to play like a freshman (and, of course, bounce after that). Stay tuned...

 

[OrangeXtreme]

That's a weak take from people who go out of their way to deify Jim Boeheim..

What could he have done? Oh, I don't know. Maybe start by making sure his players got drug tested and not complain about it to Darryl Gross?

FFS it's HIS program that he all but built from the ground up. Id think he'd show a LITTLE attention to detail with this stuff. And that's before throwing in the "minor detail" of already being sanctioned!

You really don't remember how this went down, do you?

1. Our players WERE drug tested.

2. Some of our players were naughty.

3. According to our written drug policy, players who test positive had to be suspended until their parents were called (what is this, the 1950's?)

4. Dr Gross said "Our drug policy sucks, so from now on, don't call the parents." Players who tested positive a first time were called into the office for a "Come to Jesus" meeting. This modified rule was applied across all sports, not just hoops.

If you can figure out a way to keep 18-22 year olds from smoking an occasional joint, let the rest of the world know.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Which would win us more games next season:

- Arinze Onuaku in his college prime in place of Chukwu?
or
- James Southerland in his college prime in place of Brissett?

I tried to stick with specialists because if we're arguing that we need well-rounded players who can also shoot, then we're not even really arguing. Onuaku was primarily a post scoring specialist. Okay defender and rebounder but scoring in the paint was his contribution. Southerland shot 3's. Okay defender, okay rebounder. I went with Forward becaue that's where I think it's easiest to get an extra shooter on the court, but if you would rather go with a Guard, pick a former Cuse guard who was something of a 3 point specialist. Junior year Rautins perhaps.

I obviously think a guy like prime Onuaku would take the team to the next level. Unless my example sucks, I'd assume you'd rather have Southerland.

You miss the point. Obviously we would win more games with Arinze, but the issue isn’t center it’s the four. We get zero offense out of it. We need a shooter at the 4. That is my point.

 

[chugg21]

But even a guy like Diakite can make a post move and score. You’re right in theory that they don’t really utilize them in their scheme. Salt can make a move and score. Ochefu could. Omari Spellman is capable. Our guys literally can’t or they travel or mess something up, lol.

Every time the ball somehow manages to stay in Chukwu's grasp I start screaming for him to get rid of it before an inevitable turnover happens.

 

[Brooky03]

That's a weak take from people who go out of their way to deify Jim Boeheim..

What could he have done? Oh, I don't know. Maybe start by making sure his players got drug tested and not complain about it to Darryl Gross?

FFS it's HIS program that he all but built from the ground up. Id think he'd show a LITTLE attention to detail with this stuff. And that's before throwing in the "minor detail" of already being sanctioned!

The drug testing was inconsequential to the real punishment as detailed by the NCAA. What happened with the drug testing was a matter of the Athletic Department enforcing a different 'punishment' for positive tests than what was written in the official policy. It was done universally for all athletes. Guys who tested positive were technically supposed to sit until their parents were notified. The AD realized parents didn't really care so they stopped calling them. Boom, violation. JB was crazy enough to assume his boss in the Athletic Department was applying the policy correctly. Great point.

He wasn't allowed to ask about Fab's academic situation. But he hired the Director of Basketball Ops, so he's accountable (different from responsible). No way he could have stopped Edelin from getting paid to work at the YMCA.

 

[dan7800]

I don't blame JB for the fact that most of our guys cannot catch a simple pass to save their lives.

This just isn't a talented team. The fact we end up with 18 wins is a bit surprising.

 

[Brooky03]

You miss the point. Obviously we would win more games with Arinze, but the issue isn’t center it’s the four. We get zero offense out of it. We need a shooter at the 4. That is my point.

If Bazely comes in as good as advertised but decides not to shoot any 3's, we're still going to be really good. I agree that we need production out of the 4. If that's Hakim Warrick style production, bring it. If it's Southerland style production, that's gravy too.

 

[JrodCuse]

But it won't be. We'll go like 25-7 and flame out in the second round of the NCAA tournament when we face a hot shooting team. I'm with TinyManInside on this one. Next season is not going to be vintage 2012 34-3 dominance.

A vintage season is 34-3?!?!?! C'mon maaaaan. That's an all time great season. If you think 25-7 is a bad seasons...bro go root for Duke.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Overvalued in the sense that people on this board think they're automatic program-savers. (The history around here is overheated...Dolezaj was Keith Van Horn, Chukwu's Gobert, and Andrew White and John Gillon were positively certain to lead a wire-to-wire top-ten Final Four team.)

It takes so much more that a great talent (or even five talents) to make a very good college basketball team. (I know you know this, just restating for effect.) And it's even more difficult for a program on such shaky footing.

Beyond that, I'm perennially skeptical of recruiting rankings. Hopefully Bazley's a star. Maybe he's just going to play like a freshman (and, of course, bounce after that). Stay tuned...

Maybe you’re trying to downplay expectations next year in case JB can’t have us being a good team, but if we aren’t good next year we need a new coach.

 

[HOFCeluck]

You really don't remember how this went down, do you?

1. Our players WERE drug tested.

2. Some of our players were naughty.

3. According to our written drug policy, players who test positive had to be suspended until their parents were called (what is this, the 1950's?)

4. Dr Gross said "Our drug policy sucks, so from now on, don't call the parents." Players who tested positive a first time were called into the office for a "Come to Jesus" meeting. This modified rule was applied across all sports, not just hoops.

If you can figure out a way to keep 18-22 year olds from smoking an occasional joint, let the rest of the world know

“Additionally, Jim Boeheim told the NCAA he disregarded the policy because the athletic director told him he didn't have to follow it.”

“Didn’t have to follow it” =\= “Don’t follow it.” And JB has dealt with the NCAA and knows exactly what kind of “organization” that is. He should’ve known better.

And I understand that the policy is archaic. The solution to that is to CHANGE THE POLICY.

 

[Cusefan0307]

If Bazely comes in as good as advertised but decides not to shoot any 3's, we're still going to be really good. I agree that we need production out of the 4. If that's Hakim Warrick style production, bring it. If it's Southerland style production, that's gravy too.

Hakim Warrick would be shooting jumpshots if he played today. Wendell Carter shoots 3’s for Duke. This isn’t the 1990’s or 2000’s. The best teams aren’t winning shooting just 2’s. Teams pack the paint if you try.

 

[OttoMets]

Maybe you’re trying to downplay expectations next year in case JB can’t have us being a good team, but if we aren’t good next year we need a new coach.

Hang on, you're presuming that I've got a "Retain Boeheim" agenda and I'm pouring cold water on expectations for next season to further that?

Now I've seen everything.

 

[Brooky03]

“Additionally, Jim Boeheim told the NCAA he disregarded the policy because the athletic director told him he didn't have to follow it.”

“Didn’t have to follow it” =\= “Don’t follow it.” And JB has dealt with the NCAA and knows exactly what kind of “organization” that is. He should’ve known better.

And I understand that the policy is archaic. The solution to that is to CHANGE THE POLICY.

And it wasn't just basketball that didn't follow it. Nobody who consulted the AD followed it. That was a "Jim Boeheim's boss" problem, not a Jim Boeheim problem.

And, like I said, the recruiting and schollie sanctions weren't influenced much, if at all, by the drug testing. That primarily impacted the wins.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Hang on, you're presuming that I've got a "Retain Boeheim" agenda and I'm pouring cold water on expectations for next season to further that?

Now I've seen everything.

I’m not saying you’re protecting Boeheim. I’m saying expectations should be high. Three out of four seasons in the NIT is enough. I along with a lot of others except us in the top 20 with a protected seed based on the talent we will have and our history. If it doesn’t happen we need a new coach. Enough is enough.

 

[HOFCeluck]

And it wasn't just basketball that didn't follow it. Nobody who consulted the AD followed it.

OH WELL THAT CHANGES EVERYTHING

OK I’m done. I don’t even disagree with what your saying overall about this season. But I’m not going to spend he rest of this afternoon dying on this hill.