WWE Thread

[jordville]

Edit your edit: Must watch.

Although TBF, “Much watch” also works.

Only caught the Ultimate Warrior, a few days ago… by the end of that I had some saline-like liquid forming around my eyes.

They've all been really good!

 

[jordville]

Some surprising cuts from WWE today. Per Dave Meltzer:

"Braun Strowman, Aleister Black, Lana, Murphy, Ruby Riott and Santana Garrett have all been released."

Braun and Aleister especially... as they've put a lot of money and production behind them lately.

 

[creatorsgam]

They've all been really good!

I’ll have to look at the episode list but I’m a self-proclaimed 80s/90s wrestling mark… to me, even a “bad episode” would be good.

What can I say? I’m nostalgic for that era.

 

[jordville]

I’ll have to look at the episode list but I’m a self-proclaimed 80s/90s wrestling mark… to me, even a “bad episode” would be good.

What can I say? I’m nostalgic for that era.

Kicked off the series with Stone Cold. Then Piper.. Macho Man.. Booker T.. HBK.. Warrior.. Mick. Hitman up next. Think I saw Cena and Rock follow.

 

[Symphony Steve]

Braun and Aleister especially... as they've put a lot of money and production behind them lately.

There's more and more speculation that WWE is cutting costs in preparation to sell the company.

NBC has been inexplicably (IMO) overpaying for all sorts of content, so it's possible they're getting ready to buy the company.

 

[ScrabbCuse]

There's more and more speculation that WWE is cutting costs in preparation to sell the company.

NBC has been inexplicably (IMO) overpaying for all sorts of content, so it's possible they're getting ready to buy the company.

This is probably the best answer for what Vince has done. Otherwise it makes zero sense. Braun Strowman has been one of the faces of the company for years now. He was in a championship match at a ppv just last month. There were months of video packages for Aleister Black’s return. He showed up last week for his first appearance with his new character to start a feud with Big E. Cutting these guys makes no sense unless Vince is seriously thinking of selling.

 

[OrangeDW]

This is probably the best answer for what Vince has done. Otherwise it makes zero sense. Braun Strowman has been one of the faces of the company for years now. He was in a championship match at a ppv just last month. There were months of video packages for Aleister Black’s return. He showed up last week for his first appearance with his new character to start a feud with Big E. Cutting these guys makes no sense unless Vince is seriously thinking of selling.

AEW must be licking their chops.

WWE screwed up with Braun back when they were trying to keep their Reigns babyface era going.

AEW very well might be able to get it right with him.

I’ve read that Black and Murphy are highly regarded too, through I can’t say I’ve seen a ton of them.

 

[OrangeDW]

MY top 10 meaning I’m looking at it how I want to: I’m focused largely on how entertaining I found their matches, feuds, and promos. Off the top of my head so I very well may forget someone or not fully think through my order:

1. Bret Hart
2. Chris Jericho
3. Randy Savage
4. Ric Flair
5. Curt Hennig
6. Kurt Angle
7. Ricky Steamboat
8. Ted Dibiase
9. Rowdy Roddy Piper
10. Rick Rude

 

[jordville]

There's more and more speculation that WWE is cutting costs in preparation to sell the company.

NBC has been inexplicably (IMO) overpaying for all sorts of content, so it's possible they're getting ready to buy the company.

Yes.. a lot going around about a possible sale. Buy shares now.. and hold for when it does happen.

 

[jordville]

AEW must be licking their chops.

WWE screwed up with Braun back when they were trying to keep their Reigns babyface era going.

AEW very well might be able to get it right with him.

I’ve read that Black and Murphy are highly regarded too, through I can’t say I’ve seen a ton of them.

Braun has/had a big contract and they weren't getting him on TV. Probably don't know what to do with him.. shocker. Lots of talk about his demands in his last contract. Maybe they go back to the table to negotiate, but it doesn't sound likely at the moment.

Black is a talent, no doubt. Murphy too for that matter. WWE had been putting a lot of money/production of late in Aleister's latest push. Then boom.. dropped him out of left field today. Insiders said that one was a last second call and out of nowhere. Others had been rumored over the past week.

All the talent dropped today will have no problem finding work.

I'd expect a Lana/Miro (formerly Rusev) reunion.

 

[Symphony Steve]

AEW must be licking their chops.

WWE screwed up with Braun back when they were trying to keep their Reigns babyface era going.

AEW very well might be able to get it right with him.

I’ve read that Black and Murphy are highly regarded too, through I can’t say I’ve seen a ton of them.

I dunno. Don't think I'd sign Strowman if I was AEW. Don't think he has much appeal to the AEW fan base. Now, Alistair Black w/Zelina Vega, absolutely. And Lana.

But AEW, if anything, has too many wrestlers on their roster and not enough airtime for them all. Even with another 60 minute show in the fall. I think they could use a creative booker to take some of the workload off of Tony Khan. I'd ask Jericho, who could be winding down his in-ring career soon. Guy's tremendously creative.

The more I think about it, the more I think that Nick Kahn was brought in with the idea of a possible sale. He's already proven to be quite the dealmaker. And WWE is downsizing in a lot of departments, not just the talent roster.

 

[OrangeDW]

I dunno. Don't think I'd sign Strowman if I was AEW. Don't think he has much appeal to the AEW fan base. Now, Alistair Black w/Zelina Vega, absolutely. And Lana.

But AEW, if anything, has too many wrestlers on their roster and not enough airtime for them all. Even with another 60 minute show in the fall. I think they could use a creative booker to take some of the workload off of Tony Khan. I'd ask Jericho, who could be winding down his in-ring career soon. Guy's tremendously creative.

The more I think about it, the more I think that Nick Kahn was brought in with the idea of a possible sale. He's already proven to be quite the dealmaker. And WWE is downsizing in a lot of departments, not just the talent roster.

AEW roster probably is already a bit bloated and today might be a good example of why you don’t sign up everybody that becomes available because this here could be a haul if you’ve got the spots available?

I don’t know...Braun got over pretty organically. He’s a monster that can actually work fairly well and has a charisma to him. Sad as it is, I think he could fill the void Luke Harper/Brodie Lee’s passing left.

 

[jncuse]

Edit your edit: Must watch.

Although TBF, “Much watch” also works.

Only caught the Ultimate Warrior, a few days ago… by the end of that I had some saline-like liquid forming around my eyes.

The Ultimate Warrior documentary is a strange one for me reaction wise.

I also welled up a bit towards the end of it. Seemed like a story of redemption and reconciliation that felt right.

But then I sat back and thought of everything I had watched and really it left me with a pretty hollow feeling about the Warrior. I wondered why this guy has been honoured as a premier legacy legend by the WWE and what exactly was the redemption here? Was it redemption or just to show those that did not act great through the process try to make things go away because they felt "bad" about the bullying both ways?

The guy was not a good wrestler. He did have some memorable matches though. I loved the SummerSlam 88 match against Honky -- it was a perfect 30 second match to build his character. And I think the WM7 match? against Savage. And the Hogan WM6 was pulled off well. But in the end he is not a memorable performer that is not that good at his craft.

He was very popular but for a short time -- his run as WWE champion was not memorable. They had to take the belt off him as the WWE started its slide and he was not responsible nor professional.

Other wrestlers did not really like him. The lack of others talking anything great about him in the doc spoke volumes to me. He also had a reputation as not being great with kids at events. The talkers were basically podcasters who loved him as a kid.

And while he was a great father, to me in the current day your role as a human being extends beyond responsibility to your family but to be decent to the rest of society. Reading up on his remarks against gay people, other races, Hurricane Katrina victims, Bobby Heenan, this guy was not only a bit of a nut but a real jerk (and being a republican by itself does not make you a nut or jerk). The "he listened to talk radio" and that was the reason for the incident was just a bad misrepresentation of the story. Connecticut was not an isolated incident.

At the end of this the redemption is unsatisfactory. The Warrior made amends with fellow workers. That was nice and that made me well up. He was a great father. But where is the responsibility or accountability for the deplorable words and thoughts that he had? When did he apologize for that?

In the end I am left feeling that while it is fine that this guy is a Hall of Famer, the placement of him at the top of the WWE hierarchy is just not deserved -- he was neither a great wrestler, a great professional, or a great human being.

 

[cusefan88]

Vince won't sell right? That's not in his DNA. He needs to retire and let new people take over (HHH)

 

[Briancuse]

Edit your edit: Must watch.

Although TBF, “Much watch” also works.

Only caught the Ultimate Warrior, a few days ago… by the end of that I had some saline-like liquid forming around my eyes.

Ya that was a sad ending. No question drugs ruined his life.

 

[OrangeDW]

The Ultimate Warrior documentary is a strange one for me reaction wise.

I also welled up a bit towards the end of it. Seemed like a story of redemption and reconciliation that felt right.

But then I sat back and thought of everything I had watched and really it left me with a pretty hollow feeling about the Warrior. I wondered why this guy has been honoured as a premier legacy legend by the WWE and what exactly was the redemption here? Was it redemption or just to show those that did not act great through the process try to make things go away because they felt "bad" about the bullying both ways?

The guy was not a good wrestler. He did have some memorable matches though. I loved the SummerSlam 88 match against Honky -- it was a perfect 30 second match to build his character. And I think the WM7 match? against Savage. And the Hogan WM6 was pulled off well. But in the end he is not a memorable performer that is not that good at his craft.

He was very popular but for a short time -- his run as WWE champion was not memorable. They had to take the belt off him as the WWE started its slide and he was not responsible nor professional.

Other wrestlers did not really like him. The lack of others talking anything great about him in the doc spoke volumes to me. He also had a reputation as not being great with kids at events. The talkers were basically podcasters who loved him as a kid.

And while he was a great father, to me in the current day your role as a human being extends beyond responsibility to your family but to be decent to the rest of society. Reading up on his remarks against gay people, other races, Hurricane Katrina victims, Bobby Heenan, this guy was not only a bit of a nut but a real jerk (and being a republican by itself does not make you a nut or jerk). The "he listened to talk radio" and that was the reason for the incident was just a bad misrepresentation of the story. Connecticut was not an isolated incident.

At the end of this the redemption is unsatisfactory. The Warrior made amends with fellow workers. That was nice and that made me well up. He was a great father. But where is the responsibility or accountability for the deplorable words and thoughts that he had? When did he apologize for that?

In the end I am left feeling that while it is fine that this guy is a Hall of Famer, the placement of him at the top of the WWE hierarchy is just not deserved -- he was neither a great wrestler, a great professional, or a great human being.

Even with all that, his Mania matches with Hogan and Savage more than delivered, and he did his part.

Hogan-Warrior was just enormous in second grade. I think every kid in the class talked about that match everyday and took sides, leading up to it.

And my friends and brother used to rewatch Warrior-Savage at Mania 7 all the time. We had it on VHS and while we often watched the whole event, Warrior-Savage was easily the centerpiece match that had us in awe.

 

[jncuse]

Even with all that, his Mania matches with Hogan and Savage more than delivered, and he did his part.

Hogan-Warrior was just enormous in second grade. I think every kid in the class talked about that match everyday and took sides, leading up to it.

And my friends and brother used to rewatch Warrior-Savage at Mania 7 all the time. We had it on VHS and while we often watched the whole event, Warrior-Savage was easily the centerpiece match that had us in awe.

I used to tape all the WWF PPV's at the time as well (from 88 onwards as my neighbour had the old school satellite dishes). WM6 and WM7 were classic matches without a doubt. He did have memorable matches (3 in my mind( in a short run even if he had limited talent.

But it's still a very short run to be at the top of the WWE hierarchy. So just purely from a wrestling perspective it seems off to me from a career perspective, even though I loved him as a kid-- and that is before we get into any human stuff.

But I can see how you disagree on his wrestling legacy -- he had some very real highs and had a huge impact on younger crowds. Legacy assessments are ultimately personal things. I can't tell you who you loved the most, or you can't tell me who I loved the most.

But my issue with the documentary is how it presented Warrior as redeeming himself on several levels by showing how great a family man he was. And for certain things it worked -- the reconciliation got to me on an emotional level. But it was only after the doc when I thought about it that I was left with a bit of an empty feeling on other human things that he never apologized for and were never redeemed.

 

[jncuse]

In terms of the other WWE / A&E documentaries I liked most of them as well. The only one I did not like was the Randy Savage one - that one just got off track.

My favourite one was the Mick Foley one. His story has been communicated in many mediums so many times so there is a risk that it could be a miss, but it wasn't. He is such a great interview, interesting and decent person, and they did a really good job with it. It seemed the most honest as well. Others sometimes had to skew presentation to fit a narrative -- not for Mick Liked the perspective from his kids as well.

The Austin one was not really not that informative, but it left me feeling good afterwards. So thumbs up.

Piper was good because I didn't know that much about his younger days including his roots in Canada, and really liked the family involvement from his kids. Booker T was also a different angle of attack that I liked.


Getting back to the Randy Savage one. It was just a very poorly done documentary in my view that left you wondering what exactly was the conclusion they were trying to make about this man. It flowed up and down.
- Way too many random characters speaking.
- Way too much Bubba the Love Sponge. The post 2002 feud between Hogan was really not that relevant and yet it was a major focus of the documentary.
- Not enough content on certain elements of his WWE career even if that stuff is largely known.
- Way too much focus on certain non relevant items.

 

[cusefan88]

In terms of the other WWE / A&E documentaries I liked most of them as well. The only one I did not like was the Randy Savage one - that one just got off track.

My favourite one was the Mick Foley one. His story has been communicated in many mediums so many times so there is a risk that it could be a miss, but it wasn't. He is such a great interview, interesting and decent person, and they did a really good job with it. It seemed the most honest as well. Others sometimes had to skew presentation to fit a narrative -- not for Mick Liked the perspective from his kids as well.

The Austin one was not really not that informative, but it left me feeling good afterwards. So thumbs up.

Piper was good because I didn't know that much about his younger days including his roots in Canada, and really liked the family involvement from his kids. Booker T was also a different angle of attack that I liked.


Getting back to the Randy Savage one. It was just a very poorly done documentary in my view that left you wondering what exactly was the conclusion they were trying to make about this man. It flowed up and down.
- Way too many random characters speaking.
- Way too much Bubba the Love Sponge. The post 2002 feud between Hogan was really not that relevant and yet it was a major focus of the documentary.
- Not enough content on certain elements of his WWE career even if that stuff is largely known.
- Way too much focus on certain non relevant items.

Somebody at WWE still has an axe to grind on Savage and it's not right. Austin also had domestic violence issues but that wasn't even touched in his. Completely unfair and different standards.

 

[jncuse]

So while we are talking about the A&E doc's, we can certainly talk about the other great documentary series, Canadian produced, "Dark Side of the Ring" Season 3.

Really liked the Pillman one.

The Korea one was a bit dull, although not sure if the documenter could have done better. They went to North Korea and they acted like communists as expected, but they got through it with not too much difficulty. I just dont know if there was that much of a story there other than 2 Cool Scorpio seems to be a dick.

The one that I want to really comment on was Nick Gage and Death Match Wrestling.
Was it informative to me? Yes. I did not know this type of crap still existed and to the extent it went to. It's sick. Maybe I am have been living in a hole. I thought wrestling had moved on from the extreme era... and this was even more extreme.

Was it Dark? Yes

But it upset me. I really, really hate this crap This goes beyond extreme. They tried to show some personal development in Gage and I don't know. He still seems a bit whacked as does his Significant other, and this promoter is an ass in my view.

I like Jon Moxley, although not crazy about some of the blood and guts stuff he does, Did not realize he had some early career experience in this crap. People will disagree with me and that is fine, but the fact that Jon Moxley talked so highly about this and seems to want to be heading towards a match in this, makes me think less of Moxley.

 

[Shawn91111]

But in the end he is not a memorable performer that is not that good at his craft.

He was very popular but for a short time -- his run as WWE champion was not memorable. They had to take the belt off him as the WWE started its slide and he was not responsible nor professional.

If he was not memorable, why was he so popular? People clamored for him for decades. His championship run wasn't memorable, but then again was it all his fault. Who were the top heals he had to work against?

 

[cusefan88]

If he was not memorable, why was he so popular? People clamored for him for decades. His championship run wasn't memorable, but then again was it all his fault. Who were the top heals he had to work against?

He needed a specific opponent to bring out his quality. His three match run with Rick Rude were all fantastic matches (WM5, SS89, and SS90)

 

[OrangeDW]

Ultimate Warrior vs. Goldberg...who had the better run?

Pretty similar in terms of strengths/weaknesses IMO.

 

[Shawn91111]

He needed a specific opponent to bring out his quality. His three match run with Rick Rude were all fantastic matches (WM5, SS89, and SS90)

And I agree with that, but trying to rehash the Rude feud right at the get go of his Championship run wasn't going to work. He lacked quality opponents. The Savage feud happened too late after the belt was off.

 

[jncuse]

If he was not memorable, why was he so popular? People clamored for him for decades. His championship run wasn't memorable, but then again was it all his fault. Who were the top heals he had to work against?

The use of the words "not very memorable" was certainly a poor choice on my part. He was certainly very memorable.

Whether he is viewed as a great wrestler is in the eye of the beholder, because the definition of great can be viewed in many different contexts. And whether he would have been terrible in other eras, he was certainly good for that era. And you are all correct that his PPV matches did deliver for the most part.

He was a character that was better as a chaser IMO, and that was better in small doses. And perhaps while he would not be great in other era's, that was the great advantage of 1980's / early 90's wrestling. They literally gave the TV viewer nothing months at a time other than character development / presentation which Warrior appealed to. There was no great matches on TV other than the odd SNME. You had 3 or 4 shows a year you get hyped about so things could be built.

The Warrior or many WWE wrestlers from that era would not be able to work in an era of over exposure like today with weekly shows and Monthly PPV's (it was an era that worked for house shows not being on TV for the masses every week). I understand the modern day need revenue derived from weekly and monthly shows, but it does hurt the product. It seemed so much easier to build things back then -- or maybe I was young.

I know I am just rambling at this point, so a few other random points on the subject:

I went to a house show at the Montreal Forum in November 1987 to watch Hulk Hogan vs One Man Gang. It was a sell out (probably 17 or 18,000) -- I remember being in standing room and the crowd was nuts. Me and my dad were not huge Hogan fans (I was 12), but somehow in the electricity of the moment we got into Hogan. In May 1990 there was a house show at the Forum between, that featured Warrior vs Mr. Perfect and it drew less than 5,000 people (4,200 per Wrestling Data Com). Is that a shot at the Warrior? Not really -- he became the champion at the time when the WWE was already in a fairly quick declining period and was certainly less hot than 2 years earlier, so it was going to be difficult for him to thrive as a champion financially in that era like Hogan did. People may not remember but WM7 was supposed to be at the Coliseum but was simply not going to draw anywhere close to a sellout so they moved it. Warrior was walking into a tough period when he was champ, so to blame him for the financial difficulties may not be fair.

The Roster also seemed to stink a bit in 1990. The roster built up quite well again by 1992 (remember all the talent 1992 Royal Rumble) but wrestling was still a flatlining business for the WWE despite that. And by 1993 the roster stunk again. Contrast the participants of the 1992 vs 1993 Royal Rumble and its shocking.

And now my next rambling point. When the Warrior returned in 1996, we had all matured. I was in university at that point, and I could tell you that as me and my friends watched him come back we were not that excited about it (indifferent would be the word) -- the concept of "Warrior University" that they were pushing seemed a bit of a joke.