This one's on the staff

[dasher]

Jimmy did all his great work before the three point line came in. Just imagine ...

Marty Headd

 

[We Are Syracuse]

Think again.

Let me suggest that if you weren't there --- like Dasher and I --- you don't have a clue what it was like. That Final Four was considered then a fluke. SU was a small-time program, even after. And the Ragin Cajuns going on probation had a lot to do with the FF.

I have no idea what was going on back then so I will not even act like I know lol. But, if you want to use what happened in the 80s and 90s into our argument of top coaches today then that's fine. I did not factor or weigh that into my coaches list and do not intend to. If you want to talk about past, Randy Bennett inherited Saint Mary's when they just went 2-27 the year prior to when he got there. He now has them as a program winning as much as anybody. Tony Bennett has done the same thing. Lots of coaches bring programs up.

 

[Cowtown]

Marty Headd

Never got to see him play, or the Louie & Bowie show. Where I was living then we still had B&W tv and cable was the three US networks. And CBC French . I could read up on college hoops in SI, which was about all the coverage there was. But I knew about the Lees because we played against Mike when I was in HS.

 

[dasher]

Never got to see him play, or the Louie & Bowie show. Where I was living then we still had B&W tv and cable was the three US networks. And CBC French . I could read up in hoops in SI, which was about all the coverage there was. But I knew about the Lees because we played against Mike when I was in HS.

A great long distance shooter

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Yeah, because it is a fair observation that jb isn't a very good coach. And that is exactly what Zonk and his friends are saying. They don't like his coaching. Hard to have a 'FAIR" conversation with something so moronic.

What's moronic is your characterization of what i've been saying.
Show me where i've written "jb isn't a very good coach." In ANY form or derivation.
Show me where i've written that i/we "don't like his coaching" as an absolute, all-encompassing statement. Somehow, you keep trotting out simpleminded, condensed and therefore inaccurate 'versions' of what i'm saying, as if you can't grok the difference between saying you don't like part of something and saying you don't like the entirety of it. If you're telling me JB is faultless and has never made a mistake, and/or it's ridiculous/invalid/inappropriate to suggest that he isn't faultless/that he has made a mistake, then, sure, by that standard, i'm wrong/stupid.

In my opinion, though, a 'mature' adult shouldn't be so proud of having such a non-critical perspective on... Anything. It illustrates an inability to see/think more than any type of virtue you seem to think it is. "Fair conversation" to you seems to be entirely one-sided—agreement with you. Pep rallies are fun. They just don't have much actual substance.

 

[dasher]

What's moronic is your characterization of what i've been saying.
Show me where i've written "jb isn't a very good coach." In ANY form or derivation.
Show me where i've written that i/we "don't like his coaching" as an absolute, all-encompassing statement. Somehow, you keep trotting out simpleminded, condensed and therefore inaccurate 'versions' of what i'm saying, as if you can't grok the difference between saying you don't like part of something and saying you don't like the entirety of it. If you're telling me JB is faultless and has never made a mistake, and/or it's ridiculous/invalid/inappropriate to suggest that he isn't faultless/that he has made a mistake, then, sure, by that standard, i'm wrong/stupid.

In my opinion, though, a 'mature' adult shouldn't be so proud of having such a non-critical perspective on... Anything. It illustrates an inability to see/think more than any type of virtue you seem to think it is. "Fair conversation" to you seems to be entirely one-sided—agreement with you. Pep rallies are fun. They just don't have much actual substance.

maybe I'm wrong. I thought you said that you didn't like his coaching. Of course no one would say they didn't like good coaching. I thought you said that you didn't have a friend that liked his coaching. I'll have to go back and look . Well, I went back and sure enough, you said that you don't know anyone that is a jb fan. And that you and no one you know, like his coaching. Kind of tough not to draw the conclusion that you don't think he is a good coach. Okay, on a scale of 1-100, with 100 being John Wooden and 1 being whoever is coaching Rutgers right now, where do you put jb?

 

[br801]

Think again.

Let me suggest that if you weren't there --- like Dasher and I --- you don't have a clue what it was like. That Final Four was considered then a fluke. SU was a small-time program, even after. And the Ragin Cajuns going on probation had a lot to do with the FF.

That and a team that shot out of it's butt against North Carolina. When we were working out at the final four, Kentucky players were openly laughing at us. No kidding. We were not on the college basketball map.

I watched that first Final Four run as an SU sports fan growing up in Central NY, and you guys are absolutely right about all of this. As fate would have it, I arrived at SU as a freshman the year JB took the reins. It is difficult for me to imagine this program having a comparable extended run of success under any other coach.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Bunch of goddamn old timers in here

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Why don't we try this, here is a question for you and your "friends". Name 5 coaches, that you would rather have coaching Syracuse. You might want to make it 5 guys that would actually come here.

Are you really not understanding the words? Or do you just need to move the goalposts to fit your agenda? Here's what i said, as simply as i can put it.

• We've discussed, since 1985, that we don't believe JB is among the 'top 5' coaches. A lot of coaches have coached since 1985. Some have retired, some have had brief, non-lasting successes. At any given moment, whenever the discussion has taken place, in general, we didn't have JB in the top 5 of coaches who were then working. Not sure what your beef is with that. It's not as if i said he's #20 in my book. I could have had him at #6, but you went rabid just because i/we say he's not 'elite' and then acknowledge that everyone has a different definition of 'elite.' Top "5" is an entirely arbitrary number. Top "6" is no less valid, but somehow that angers you.

• The discussion was not about who was hirable by SU or available to coach SU. Somehow, you want to take a bunch of statements which reflect a bunch of things and then condense them to one simplistic (inaccurate) statement, and then add an additional set of conditions...

• The dialog tends to be about, 'if not top 5,' then where? And the answers have always been 'in the top 20,' and then there are lots of situational/hypothetical talks you probably can't entertain. Like, what if (a) Shaka Smart had the Dome for 40 years. What if JB coached at VCU. For some coaches who had brief successes, what if they had JB's job — were their brief successes a matter of situation or actual talent/acumen? So, yeah, i'm speaking for, say, 6 different people, over 30 years of time, and the assessment of JB, if i simplified it for you, is probably somewhere from 6 to let's say 12. I don't remember any real arguments for him being much lower than that. If that's somehow damaging to you, i don't know what to say. Nothing much can be said, since you don't seem to be able to see/acknowledge/admit that JB isn't infallible. Reminds me of the argument i had with a kid in high school who insisted that every single professional baseball player was faster than me. Because they were professional athletes. JB is a "hall of fame coach." Therefore, he's a genius. He's not a genius. He's only a man.

• We talk about such things like a) 'only' one NC; but b) three finals appearances. And, personally, i count a finals appearance as pretty much equal to a championship win. So, you see, i kinda give JB credit for that. Hope that pleases you. Then we discuss that the 96 finals appearance was down to two incredibly 'lucky' plays, and we don't credit JB for those plays. So, there's a conflict i hope you can reconcile. I don't have much confidence in that, though. There are a LOT of conflicts and contradictions and factoring discussed. And what we come up with is that there are no concrete answers. It's entirely subjective, and that only morons insist that it isn't. Like insisting we deserved to make the tournament last year. There are arguments on both sides, and if you're only on the SU side of that argument because you have a connection to SU, that doesn't mean you're correct. Not recognizing the bias in an argument isn't a bragworthy characteristic.

 

[Cowtown]

Bunch of goddamn old timers in here

 

[Zelda Zonk]

No one's said that. You're off in the weeds on this.

He's "in the jungle, baby."

NO ONE has said that. Not sure why he's clinging to that vine...

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Outside of K, Pitino, Cal, maybe Roy, maybe Self, and maybe Izzo it's really difficult to sell me on anyone else being a better coach than Boeheim.

Not being argumentative, but what's the standard for "being a better coach?" There are a lot of potential standards, which is why i can have two or more different answers, depending on the criteria.

• If it's 'program historical success and longevity and consistency' — JB, in the top 5.
• If it's 'give all coaches equal players and pit them against each other' — i don't have him in the top 5.
• If it's game strategist vs game strategist (including prep), with equal talent on both sides, i don't have him in the top 5.
• If it's 'what has he meant to a university/town,' — JB, in the top 5.
• If it's 'how many wins and/or championships would a coach have if given the Dome for 40 years' — i don't have him in the top 5...

 

[Zelda Zonk]

I don't think we need explain the way a public message board works do we? I think it's crap to act like Zelda thinks Boeheim is a good coach but doesn't like the way he coaches. Zelda does not like Boeheim and to some that makes him less of fan because the guy built the program (I'm one of them). I don't care if he went there and if he has watched every game for the last 35 years (which all would have been coached by the same guy), in my mind he is less of a fan than myself or Dasher or many other people on here. He is discounting many accomplishments and I feel like he is delegitimizing Boeheim and the program in a way. I'm not sure if he met Boeheim in the 80's and he was a jerk to him or something and he has carried that crap around with him like a cancer for the last 30 years like a guy her in Seattle on sports radio named Mitch Levy but that is the reality. Stand up for Zelda if you want but don't tell people to calm down when they try and defend the best thing to every happen to Syracuse basketball which they love. That is the way I feel.

Wow. You need to make up a story about Boeheim kicking my dog in order to conceive that i don't worship the man? Amazing. I passed him in a Wegman's parking lot once, in 1989. And he didn't say 'sup. So, maybe that's the source of my 'hostility.'

Wow. You are actually projecting Levels of Fandom. What level are you? Seriously, i can't imagine a more puerile bit of rubbish. [Yes, i can...]

Delegitimizing the program. Discounting the accomplishments. This is embarrassing.

Simple question: do i have to like 100% of everything in order to 'like it' at an approved cuseinseattle level? What percentage makes it all valid? What if i loved everything JB has done, except when he pulled Shumpert that one time in whatever year that was. Would i be a real fan then? How many moments can i disagree with and still be a part of the seattle and dasher club? You guys act like i have JB at a 27% approval rating or something. What do you people do for a living, where you don't need to deal with logic, or being able to parse nuance, or consider different opinions? Oooh, wait — those kinds of people just won an election...

 

[dasher]

Are you really not understanding the words? Or do you just need to move the goalposts to fit your agenda? Here's what i said, as simply as i can put it.

• We've discussed, since 1985, that we don't believe JB is among the 'top 5' coaches. A lot of coaches have coached since 1985. Some have retired, some have had brief, non-lasting successes. At any given moment, whenever the discussion has taken place, in general, we didn't have JB in the top 5 of coaches who were then working. Not sure what your beef is with that. It's not as if i said he's #20 in my book. I could have had him at #6, but you went rabid just because i/we say he's not 'elite' and then acknowledge that everyone has a different definition of 'elite.' Top "5" is an entirely arbitrary number. Top "6" is no less valid, but somehow that angers you.

• The discussion was not about who was hirable by SU or available to coach SU. Somehow, you want to take a bunch of statements which reflect a bunch of things and then condense them to one simplistic (inaccurate) statement, and then add an additional set of conditions...

• The dialog tends to be about, 'if not top 5,' then where? And the answers have always been 'in the top 20,' and then there are lots of situational/hypothetical talks you probably can't entertain. Like, what if (a) Shaka Smart had the Dome for 40 years. What if JB coached at VCU. For some coaches who had brief successes, what if they had JB's job — were their brief successes a matter of situation or actual talent/acumen? So, yeah, i'm speaking for, say, 6 different people, over 30 years of time, and the assessment of JB, if i simplified it for you, is probably somewhere from 6 to let's say 12. I don't remember any real arguments for him being much lower than that. If that's somehow damaging to you, i don't know what to say. Nothing much can be said, since you don't seem to be able to see/acknowledge/admit that JB isn't infallible. Reminds me of the argument i had with a kid in high school who insisted that every single professional baseball player was faster than me. Because they were professional athletes. JB is a "hall of fame coach." Therefore, he's a genius. He's not a genius. He's only a man.

• We talk about such things like a) 'only' one NC; but b) three finals appearances. And, personally, i count a finals appearance as pretty much equal to a championship win. So, you see, i kinda give JB credit for that. Hope that pleases you. Then we discuss that the 96 finals appearance was down to two incredibly 'lucky' plays, and we don't credit JB for those plays. So, there's a conflict i hope you can reconcile. I don't have much confidence in that, though. There are a LOT of conflicts and contradictions and factoring discussed. And what we come up with is that there are no concrete answers. It's entirely subjective, and that only morons insist that it isn't. Like insisting we deserved to make the tournament last year. There are arguments on both sides, and if you're only on the SU side of that argument because you have a connection to SU, that doesn't mean you're correct. Not recognizing the bias in an argument isn't a bragworthy characteristic.

This is the first time you have inserted the top 5 coaches. If you had said that at the beginning I would have zero problem. That isn't what you said. You moved the goal posts. You said you didn't like his coaching. That your friends didn't like his coaching. That you didn't know anyone that was a jb fan. That is not close to saying that you haven't thought he was a top 5 coach. Not the same world. Oh, and the lucky play stuff is pure B.S.. Of course there are plays that go your way one time and not the other. I'm sure you don't give him credit for losses where other schools got the lucky plays. It's the game. You move the goal posts when you accuse me of thinking jb is infallible. I do not. I have never said anything like that. I said that we have been blessed to have him as our coach for the last 41 years. Does he do things I don't like? You bet. Has he been a great coach for us. 10000x yes. Will we have the same level of success over the next 41 years, while I am hopeful, I doubt it. I hope to have that conversation with you at that time ( I doubt that as well).

 

[NineOneSeven]

This is the first time you have inserted the top 5 coaches. If you had said that at the beginning I would have zero problem. That isn't what you said. You moved the goal posts. You said you didn't like his coaching. That your friends didn't like his coaching. That you didn't know anyone that was a jb fan. That is not close to saying that you haven't thought he was a top 5 coach. Not the same world. Oh, and the lucky play stuff is pure B.S.. Of course there are plays that go your way one time and not the other. I'm sure you don't give him credit for losses where other schools got the lucky plays. It's the game. You move the goal posts when you accuse me of thinking jb is infallible. I do not. I have never said anything like that. I said that we have been blessed to have him as our coach for the last 41 years. Does he do things I don't like? You bet. Has he been a great coach for us. 10000x yes. Will we have the same level of success over the next 41 years, while I am hopeful, I doubt it. I hope to have that conversation with you at that time ( I doubt that as well).

triggered

 

[Zelda Zonk]

maybe I'm wrong. I thought you said that you didn't like his coaching. Of course no one would say they didn't like good coaching. I thought you said that you didn't have a friend that liked his coaching. I'll have to go back and look . Well, I went back and sure enough, you said that you don't know anyone that is a jb fan. And that you and no one you know, like his coaching. Kind of tough not to draw the conclusion that you don't think he is a good coach. Okay, on a scale of 1-100, with 100 being John Wooden and 1 being whoever is coaching Rutgers right now, where do you put jb?

I'll restate it then. "Not being a 'JB fan,'" meaning that we/they don't think he walks on water. Being a 'fan' of someone, meaning a 'cheerleading proponent' of that person, more than a simple acceptance/gratitude without being a fanboy. And, that said, it's not like i/we wouldn't defend him in an argument where we disagree with the criticisms. I also said that we all DO respect the accomplishments. And, in the past, i personally have said within these walls that i 'kinda like him personally, except for when he's arrogant/surly with press, except for the GMac ten games bit.' He's a good guy. Probably a very good guy. I love seeing him on the sidelines of Olympic games. I get a superficial bit of pride from that. I like him in interviews, except i always say that he takes a simple answer and turns it into a punctuation-less paragraph. He just goes and goes... I don't like zone. Wish it were not even a legal defense. So what. That's a comment on what i think of the beauty of the game, not on what we do, or whether or not it's effective sometimes. And on that topic, yes, i do think it's a weapon. Sometimes. But, i also believe it's misleading, how the media portrays it, because it's our 'defining characteristic,' the commentators always discuss it and attribute successes to it that aren't really there. In the SCarolina game, they talked about our zone throughout the game, as if it had been having some effect, and meanwhile the SC defense was doing all the damage against us. Fools gold, too often. We have an effective zone some years. I also dislike how we used to play man, but somehow we are now unable, even against scrub teams.

I love Julie. I love the JB and Julie 'team.' I love that we're almost always 'relevant.' But, i'm not going to be satisfied with 9-9 conference records even when we reach a final four. I don't think beating one good team in a postseason run is an illustration of team quality. I don't agree that JB maximizes talent. Not that he 'spoils' it, but there are more than 5 coaches who do more with less. I think, overall, he has been a top 5 recruiter nationally, if we are talking about the sum of a career. But, i think we should have more FF appearances to match. And at the same time, i think it's more complex than that. He doesn't make the shots or miss them. He's the Preparer, and players play the games in the situations in which they're put. But, the prep is critical. I don't think of him as a great motivator, or strategist.

So, there you have it. A mixy, convoluted set of some of my disparate thoughts. And, put all together, i'm quite grateful we have had him. I also wish he did some things differently. Hope that works for you.

 

[dasher]

I'll restate it then. "Not being a 'JB fan,'" meaning that we/they don't think he walks on water. Being a 'fan' of someone, meaning a 'cheerleading proponent' of that person, more than a simple acceptance/gratitude without being a fanboy. And, that said, it's not like i/we wouldn't defend him in an argument where we disagree with the criticisms. I also said that we all DO respect the accomplishments. And, in the past, i personally have said within these walls that i 'kinda like him personally, except for when he's arrogant/surly with press, except for the GMac ten games bit.' He's a good guy. Probably a very good guy. I love seeing him on the sidelines of Olympic games. I get a superficial bit of pride from that. I like him in interviews, except i always say that he takes a simple answer and turns it into a punctuation-less paragraph. He just goes and goes... I don't like zone. Wish it were not even a legal defense. So what. That's a comment on what i think of the beauty of the game, not on what we do, or whether or not it's effective sometimes. And on that topic, yes, i do think it's a weapon. Sometimes. But, i also believe it's misleading, how the media portrays it, because it's our 'defining characteristic,' the commentators always discuss it and attribute successes to it that aren't really there. In the SCarolina game, they talked about our zone throughout the game, as if it had been having some effect, and meanwhile the SC defense was doing all the damage against us. Fools gold, too often. We have an effective zone some years. I also dislike how we used to play man, but somehow we are now unable, even against scrub teams.

I love Julie. I love the JB and Julie 'team.' I love that we're almost always 'relevant.' But, i'm not going to be satisfied with 9-9 conference records even when we reach a final four. I don't think beating one good team in a postseason run is an illustration of team quality. I don't agree that JB maximizes talent. Not that he 'spoils' it, but there are more than 5 coaches who do more with less. I think, overall, he has been a top 5 recruiter nationally, if we are talking about the sum of a career. But, i think we should have more FF appearances to match. And at the same time, i think it's more complex than that. He doesn't make the shots or miss them. He's the Preparer, and players play the games in the situations in which they're put. But, the prep is critical. I don't think of him as a great motivator, or strategist.

So, there you have it. A mixy, convoluted set of some of my disparate thoughts. And, put all together, i'm quite grateful we have had him. I also wish he did some things differently. Hope that works for you.

said like that, I just about agree with everything. I am probably a bigger critique of his on his behavior. I hate it at times. By the way, i think if you watched those other coaches up close, with passionate eyes, you would see them differently as well. Just saw last night that Izzo is 1 -10 against K

 

[cuseinseattle]

Wow. You need to make up a story about Boeheim kicking my dog in order to conceive that i don't worship the man? Amazing. I passed him in a Wegman's parking lot once, in 1989. And he didn't say 'sup. So, maybe that's the source of my 'hostility.'

Wow. You are actually projecting Levels of Fandom. What level are you? Seriously, i can't imagine a more puerile bit of rubbish. [Yes, i can...]

Delegitimizing the program. Discounting the accomplishments. This is embarrassing.

Simple question: do i have to like 100% of everything in order to 'like it' at an approved cuseinseattle level? What percentage makes it all valid? What if i loved everything JB has done, except when he pulled Shumpert that one time in whatever year that was. Would i be a real fan then? How many moments can i disagree with and still be a part of the seattle and dasher club? You guys act like i have JB at a 27% approval rating or something. What do you people do for a living, where you don't need to deal with logic, or being able to parse nuance, or consider different opinions? Oooh, wait — those kinds of people just won an election...

You make the implication many times when we lose that it's on Boeheim in some way. I believe in this thread even you started by making a comment about two losses in a row to non-HOFers. Or something along those lines. To answers your questions about levels of fans yes I do that. There are people who post things and say things that make me questions their understanding of Syracuse basketball or basketball in general. Not just in this forum but in general. You don't come across people who's knowledge of basketball you are less impressed by? I don't think you need to agree with everything Boeheim does. I don't agree with everything myself. I didn't like what we did against Pitt at the end of the game in the ACC tourney last year. I thought it cost us a trip to the NCAA tourney but was wrong about that. I posted that. It less about percentages and more about the ability of a person to take every opportunity to take shots at someone. It's my opinion you do that with Boeheim and I think it is clear you are not a fan of him.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

said like that, I just about agree with everything. I am probably a bigger critique of his on his behavior. I hate it at times. By the way, i think if you watched those other coaches up close, with passionate eyes, you would see them differently as well. Just saw last night that Izzo is 1 -10 against K

My fault, then, for the "not a fan of JB" phrasing. Wasn't meant to mean 'dislike' of him or that he wasn't appreciated. It's like if i say i'm not a fan of Lebron (i'm not), it doesn't mean he still isn't the best/most valuable player in the league.

Hug it out, bro. We're on the same team, just with different perspectives.

 

[dasher]

You make the implication many times when we lose that it's on Boeheim in some way. I believe in this thread even you started by making a comment about two losses in a row to non-HOFers. Or something along those lines. To answers your questions about levels of fans yes I do that. There are people who post things and say things that make me questions their understanding of Syracuse basketball or basketball in general. Not just in this forum but in general. You don't come across people who's knowledge of basketball you are less impressed by? I don't think you need to agree with everything Boeheim does. I don't agree with everything myself. I didn't like what we did against Pitt at the end of the game in the ACC tourney last year. I thought it cost us a trip to the NCAA tourney but was wrong about that. I posted that. It less about percentages and more about the ability of a person to take every opportunity to take shots at someone. It's my opinion you do that with Boeheim and I think it is clear you are not a fan of him.

You know what cost us that Pitt game? That we didn't grab the rebound that got knocked out of bounds on their missed free throw. We got the ball but it alloed them to deny G the ball on the out of bounds throw in. We grab the rebound, we hand it to G and he takes it and drives to the hoop.

 

[dasher]

My fault, then, for the "not a fan of JB" phrasing. Wasn't meant to mean 'dislike' of him or that he wasn't appreciated. It's like if i say i'm not a fan of Lebron (i'm not), it doesn't mean he still isn't the best/most valuable player in the league.

Hug it out, bro. We're on the same team, just with different perspectives.

listen, I'm not going to hug you. This is about the 10th time you have asked me to that and I hardly know you. Maybe after treating me to dinner...

 

[Zelda Zonk]

You make the implication many times when we lose that it's on Boeheim in some way. I believe in this thread even you started by making a comment about two losses in a row to non-HOFers. Or something along those lines. To answers your questions about levels of fans yes I do that. There are people who post things and say things that make me questions their understanding of Syracuse basketball or basketball in general. Not just in this forum but in general. You don't come across people who's knowledge of basketball you are less impressed by? I don't think you need to agree with everything Boeheim does. I don't agree with everything myself. I didn't like what we did against Pitt at the end of the game in the ACC tourney last year. I thought it cost us a trip to the NCAA tourney but was wrong about that. I posted that. It less about percentages and more about the ability of a person to take every opportunity to take shots at someone. It's my opinion you do that with Boeheim and I think it is clear you are not a fan of him.

Well, here's the thing, and i hope you'll understand and appreciate this: I very rarely bash our players. I try to avoid that. Some 'person' started a thread that said "Chukwu sucks." I jumped in and said the 'thread title sucked.' Because i don't like ripping 'kids.' They're putting out effort. They play up to their abilities and training and preparation. It's freakin' cruel to rip a kid like that. That said, i have no qualms about saying, suggesting, implying that the coach hasn't put us in the best situation for success. I do think JB was 'outreached/prepared' by Frank and by whoever coaches Wisconsin. That's not the same as saying i would rather have either of those guys coaching our team. Please understand that. It's just a recognition that JB is sometimes 'beaten' by strategy and prep even before the players hit the court. I think it was less of an issue, if an issue at all, versus Wisconsin, because i didn't expect us to win. They're always big, strong, rebound well, and play fundamentally sound — which i said just before tip off, in the game thread. And we are new to each other and were on the road, and are unsettled as far as roles go. But, still, they picked us apart, in exactly the way that everyone knows you should attack a zone. And it miffed me that we had no answer for those simple strategies.

I'm saddened, that you don't think i understand basketball. But, you're not showing any specifics that indicate that i don't and that you do. Yours seems to be an emotional reaction to a perception that i'm ripping something you love. And i'm not.

Percentages, and taking shots? Weird that you're keeping track. I think you're wrong, but whatever. This thread is an aberration. I didn't start it. And what i posted wasn't particularly inflammatory. I'm just responding to the attacks. So, if that drives my 'dislike' count up, then so be it. Nope, not a 'fan' of JB. Doesn't mean i don't respect and admire what he's accomplished. Doesn't mean i'd actually even 'swap' him for someone else. To be honest, i can not be a fan of someone, and still not want him replaced by K or Izzo. Some people are just 'right' for a place or situation, and JB is probably that for us. I can say that, and still hate the zone. I don't understand why everything has to be black or white for some people. Nothing in life actually is, unless you are ignoring a hell of a lot.

 

[orange79]

said like that, I just about agree with everything. I am probably a bigger critique of his on his behavior. I hate it at times. By the way, i think if you watched those other coaches up close, with passionate eyes, you would see them differently as well. Just saw last night that Izzo is 1 -10 against K

My fault, then, for the "not a fan of JB" phrasing. Wasn't meant to mean 'dislike' of him or that he wasn't appreciated. It's like if i say i'm not a fan of Lebron (i'm not), it doesn't mean he still isn't the best/most valuable player in the league.

Hug it out, bro. We're on the same team, just with different perspectives.

COMMON GROUND!!!!

 

[dasher]

COMMON GROUND!!!!

I'm still not hugging him. Not without dinner anyway.

 

[cuseinseattle]

Well, here's the thing, and i hope you'll understand and appreciate this: I very rarely bash our players. I try to avoid that. Some 'person' started a thread that said "Chukwu sucks." I jumped in and said the 'thread title sucked.' Because i don't like ripping 'kids.' They're putting out effort. They play up to their abilities and training and preparation. It's freakin' cruel to rip a kid like that. That said, i have no qualms about saying, suggesting, implying that the coach hasn't put us in the best situation for success. I do think JB was 'outreached/prepared' by Frank and by whoever coaches Wisconsin. That's not the same as saying i would rather have either of those guys coaching our team. Please understand that. It's just a recognition that JB is sometimes 'beaten' by strategy and prep even before the players hit the court. I think it was less of an issue, if an issue at all, versus Wisconsin, because i didn't expect us to win. They're always big, strong, rebound well, and play fundamentally sound — which i said just before tip off, in the game thread. And we are new to each other and were on the road, and are unsettled as far as roles go. But, still, they picked us apart, in exactly the way that everyone knows you should attack a zone. And it miffed me that we had no answer for those simple strategies.

I'm saddened, that you don't think i understand basketball. But, you're not showing any specifics that indicate that i don't and that you do. Yours seems to be an emotional reaction to a perception that i'm ripping something you love. And i'm not.

Percentages, and taking shots? Weird that you're keeping track. I think you're wrong, but whatever. This thread is an aberration. I didn't start it. And what i posted wasn't particularly inflammatory. I'm just responding to the attacks. So, if that drives my 'dislike' count up, then so be it. Nope, not a 'fan' of JB. Doesn't mean i don't respect and admire what he's accomplished. Doesn't mean i'd actually even 'swap' him for someone else. To be honest, i can not be a fan of someone, and still not want him replaced by K or Izzo. Some people are just 'right' for a place or situation, and JB is probably that for us. I can say that, and still hate the zone. I don't understand why everything has to be black or white for some people. Nothing in life actually is, unless you are ignoring a hell of a lot.

For clarification sake I wasn't talking about you in reference to not understanding the game of basketball. I was making a point you come across people that you think know less than you and you probably think of yourself as a better fan because of it in regards to the level of fandome comment you made. I agree with you on criticizing kids and I don't like taking shots at kids. I try and keep it to what they are doing wrong and need to improve on but don't like to call them stupid or say they suck. I will admit in general I tend to side with Boeheim on most things and defend him but that is not because I blindly follow him but just because I think he is pretty awesome.