Time to move on: next year's forwards | Page 5 | Syracusefan.com

Time to move on: next year's forwards

Next year we will be built to succeed in February and March, not November and December, and as we've all seen recently that's ALL that matters.

Maybe we'll be like Kentucky. No, not a roster of one and dones but a team that struggles much of the year, then figures it out and makes a run at the end instead of a team that goes 25-0 and then 3-6 and leaves everybody in a sour mood.
 
Get ready to be wrong my friend. Gbinije's issues has very little to do with talents, but more to do with how he views himself on the team. Next year when he realizes that he will be relied upon more, you will see a more offensive-minded player who will be looking to carry the team. I heard through the grape vine that he has been killing it pick-up games, scoring the most points as the point guard in the first game. I also heard that Gbinije, Roberson, and Peterson have been the best players so far in the free flowing, coachless pick-up games so far this off-season. If don't want take my word for it, find a team manager and ask about the stats. You would also be dissappointed that your boy Cooney has being pretty much shot down due to the man-2-man defense of Gbinije and Peterson.

Sorry RF2044.


That's what I'm hoping- that we'll see the 'real' Michael Gbinije next year. I hope there is a real one that is different than we saw this year.
 
Get ready to be wrong my friend. Gbinije's issues has very little to do with talents, but more to do with how he views himself on the team. Next year when he realizes that he will be relied upon more, you will see a more offensive-minded player who will be looking to carry the team. I heard through the grape vine that he has been killing it pick-up games, scoring the most points as the point guard in the first game. I also heard that Gbinije, Roberson, and Peterson have been the best players so far in the free flowing, coachless pick-up games so far this off-season. If don't want take my word for it, find a team manager and ask about the stats. You would also be dissappointed that your boy Cooney has being pretty much shot down due to the man-2-man defense of Gbinije and Peterson.

Sorry RF2044.

As stated above, I would love to be wrong.

I get that you are a fan of Gbinije due to having seen him play in high school, but "my boy Cooney?" Really? Oh Lord

BTW, I put zero stock in pick up game stats. Zero. And neither should anyone. Glad to hear he's playing well, because he needs to play a helluva lot better next season than he did this year.
 
It's been such a long time since we've had a guard who can effectively include our big men that people don't know how to react or what to expect.



I'm telling you right now, Kaleb Joseph will surprise the non believers.
 
Get ready to be wrong my friend. Gbinije's issues has very little to do with talent, but more to do with how he views himself on the team. Next year when he realizes that he will be relied upon more, you will see a more offensive-minded player who will be looking to carry the team. I heard through the grape vine that he has been killing it pick-up games, scoring the most points as the point guard in the first game. I also heard that Gbinije, Roberson, and Peterson have been the best players so far in the free flowing, coachless pick-up games so far this off-season. If you don't want take my word for it, find a team manager and ask about the stats. You would also be dissappointed that your boy Cooney has being pretty much shot down due to the man-2-man defense of Gbinije and Peterson.

Sorry RF2044.

Did you know in those free flowing pick up games that Waiters was almost always one of the last ones picked?

They mean little.
 
My opinion of G hasn't changed much from when I watched him during preseason practice. He was a decent athlete, but not a spectacular one. He had good size as a 2, but his game is played "smaller" than a 3 [for some reason, his size just doesn't seem to translate into rebounds]. He has weird shooting mechanics that limit his upside as a three point shooter; as you point out, he can make some, but is probably going to max out as a ~35% guy--and that's okay for a complimentary shooter. I thought in general that his handle was subpar, and that he wasn't much of a threat to beat people off of the dribble unless he was catching a pass behind the defense that gave him a lane to drive. And I saw very little throughout the season to alter those early observations.

Now, that said, he played every game, but not a TON of minutes--so maybe he's capable of doing more with increased minutes. He DOES offer solid D on the perimeter, although I believe that's more a function of his size than it is him having superior defensive attributes. I didn't see much to give me hope that he'd develop into a consistent scorer, but I do think he can be a solid contributor.

I hope you're right--but I fear that there isn't much offensive upside.

RF2044, I am not trying to pick on you, but you always seem very complimentary of Cooney and critical on others, particularly those that are in competing positions with Cooney. And that is why I made a comment in jest about Cooney being your boy.

That said, as one who became an SU fan primarily because of Gbinije and one that has a little more insight than most about his situation, I can say with a lot of confidence that you have not seen the best of Gbinije yet. You say you saw a practice or two early in the preseason and he did not look impressive. Consider this, a wide receiver gets recruited as a receiver and on the first day of practice the coach says to the wide receiver, son we don't have a back-up quarter-back, so I want you to be the back-up quarterback and run the the second team offense. The receiver had never played a quarterback position in his life.How do you suppose he is going to look initially?

Anyway, I heard reports from people with connections to some of the NBA scouts that attended Syracuse practices this past season and the year before that at times, Gbinije looked like the best player on the court. So yes, I have reasons to be optimistic about what he is capable of doing going forward. I believe that what we saw this past season was a player trying to get comfortable in a new role . I heard from the anouncers many times this past season while watching games on TV that Gbinije does not know how good he is. To me that's a about lack of confidence resulting from his experience at Duke and so far at Syracuse. Although I believe that Cooney is a better shooter, for my money I will pick Gbinije over Cooney any day as a starter because I know he can give me more. However, when the coach tells you on day one you will be the back-up point guard and run the offense for the second team without any chance to compete for a starting job in the position you've played all your life, that can set you back a bit. One you learning a new position, and two you did not get a fair chance to compete for astarting job. That can mess with anyones confidence.

I have read on several posts where RF2044 have questioned Gbinije's athleticism and went as far as saying that Cooney was more athletic than Gbinije. I don't have any information leading me to suggest that Gbinije is a better athlete than Cooney, but the attachment is athlethic performance measurements from the Duke board when Gbinije was a freeshman at Duke. As you can see he was tied in first place on vertical jump with the older Plumlee brothers and he was first on the other athletic performance categories. Compare those numbers with numbers from the NBA combine, Iwill say they are pretty impressive.

Take a look.

Stand still vertical jump: 36.5 inches
Lane Agility: 10.51 seconds
3/4 Court Sprint: 3.13 seconds

Duke 2011 Performance_Board.jpg
 
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Did you know in those free flowing pick up games that Waiters was almost always one of the last ones picked?

They mean little.
Pick-up games are usually where players play without any inhibitions or worries about being pulled out of the game when they miss a shot or a defensive assignment. Also, players that tend to rely on a coach to set-up plays to get them open don't seem to do very well because the games are not controlled by a coach.
 
Pick-up games are usually where players play without any inhibitions or worries about being pulled out of the game when they miss a shot or a defensive assignment. Also, players that tend to rely on a coach to set-up plays to get them open don't seem to do very well because the games are not controlled by a coach.

I know what they are, I've witnessed them in the past. They are pick up games just like the term means. Little defense, no zone, no plays per she and lots of up and down the court running and gunning. It's not team ball at all. The games don't really translate to real games. There are times however when some players will get together to work on specific things or a player works on a specific skill.
 
Jerami Grant has made his decision--time to turn the page. We hardly knew you, Jerami--good look at the next level.

Looking ahead to next year's team, there is a BIG opportunity for PT at the forward position. And we need all three youngsters to step up and prove themselves to be contributors.

Roberson needs to make the proverbial "sophomore leap," and show why he was nicknamed "The Beast." This kid is a major league talent with some nice offensive skills, and he's athletic as hell. He's going to get his chance to demonstrate that next year. All he needs to do is bring his physical maturity up to the level of his skill development.

Ditto BJ. This is a player with a world of offensive potential / versatility, who could fill an important role as either a starter or as a key reserve. A sophomore leap would also provide us with another shooter to space the floor.

Chris McCullough--coming at you, kid. Can't afford for him to not be ready, a la Fab, Rak, Coleman. We need this kid to come in ready to be a contributor in some important capacity to help offset Jerami Grant's departure.

And Michael Gbinije, who was the jack of all trades / master of none this year--there will be an opportunity for him to contribute at the 3 next year. Need him to do a better job manning that back line next year.

The sky isn't falling. We have talent at forward. Unproven talent, yes, but talent for this to be a good team. It's going to be a fun year!

Yes, the kind of raw unproven talent that will translate into inconsistent play and an inability to score but the NBA will drool over it based on pure potential. Any of these guys who do anything at all will be entering the draft and leave us to our excitement about the next crop of raw unproven talent that will also never stay long enough to make a difference. The cycle continues...
 
Believe me I want to be more optimistic, but this team struggled offensively, now take away fair,cj, and ennis, that is asking a lot. I like the talent that we have, but that is a lot to lose, and a lot of inexperience.
Granted we are losing a good amount of talent, but you can't count Fair and CJ as two players.
 
JB let Hak shoot, let Wallace shoot, let KJo shoot, let Fair shoot...
Fair was a jump shooter, and had very little if any post game.

Hak was a post player he may have taken a few jump shots, but he did not shoot more than a couple jumper per game.

Joseph was a dribble drive, jump shooter. He didn't post up much either.

Wallace I concede as a Senior was a shooter, post-up, and all around offense player.

JB wouldn't let Grant shoot the ball this year I highly doubt he would want the kid shooting more next year. He would want him using his athleticism to beat his guy off the dribble or posting up.

Grant will develop his shot more in the NBA or NBDL than he would at Syracuse. I honestly don't blame Grant for leaving because his improvements likely wouldn't have occurred if he stayed. If Grant had Fair's jump shot then I could see him coming back and wanting to win, but he doesn't.
 
RF2044, I am not trying to pick on you, but you always seem very complimentary of Cooney and critical on others, particularly those that are in competing positions with Cooney. And that is why I made a comment in jest about Cooney being your boy.

That said, as one who became an SU fan primarily because of Gbinije and one that has a little more insight than most about his situation, I can say with a lot of confidence that you have not seen the best of Gbinije yet. You say you saw a practice or two early in the preseason and he did not look impressive. Consider this, a wide receiver gets recruited as a receiver and on the first day of practice the coach says to the wide receiver, son we don't have a back-up quarter-back, so I want you to be the back-up quarterback and run the the second team offense. The receiver had never played a quarterback position in his life.How do you suppose he is going to look initially?

Anyway, I heard reports from people with connections to some of the NBA scouts that attended Syracuse practices this past season and the year before that at times, Gbinije looked like the best player on the court. So yes, I have reasons to be optimistic about what he is capable of doing going forward. I believe that what we saw this past season was a player trying to get comfortable in a new role. I heard from the anouncers many times this past season while watching games on TV that Gbinije does not know how good he is. To me that's a about lack of confidence resulting from his experience at Duke and so far at Syracuse. Although I believe that Cooney is a better shooter, for my money I will pick Gbinije over Cooney any day as a starter because I know he can give me more. However, when the coach tells you on day one you will be the back-up point guard and run the offense for the second team without any chance to compete for a starting job in the position you've played all your life, that can set you back a bit. One you learning a new position, and two you did not get a fair chance to compete for astarting job. That can mess with anyones confidence.

I have read on several posts where RF2044 have questioned Gbinije's athleticism and went as far as saying that Cooney was more athletic than Gbinije. I don't have any information leading me to suggest that Gbinije is a better athlete than Cooney, but the attachment is athlethic performance measurements from the Duke board when Gbinije was a freeshman at Duke. As you can see he was tied in first place on vertical jump with the older Plumlee brothers and he was first on the other athletic performance categories. Compare those numbers with numbers from the NBA combine, Iwill say they are pretty impressive.

Take a look.

Stand still vertical jump: 36.5 inches
Lane Agility: 10.51 seconds
3/4 Court Sprint: 3.13 seconds

View attachment 10986


Ah, now your posts make a lot more sense, since you became an SU fan because of some association with Gbinije [maybe even a family member, friend, neighbor, or something along those lines]. Here are a couple of quick reactions to your post above:

#1, I root for the name on the front of the jersey, not the back. I do not root for one player on the team to succeed, but another to fail because it suits an agenda, or because I'm personally invested in only one player. I can appreciate that you have a rooting interest in Gbinije, but I don't resonate with rooting for one of our players over the others.

#2, I don't recall ever having made a specific comparison between Cooney's athleticism and Gbinije's. I think this is an example of you taking anything positive said about Cooney as a slight toward the player that you specifically root for. Trust me, I want them both to succeed. And I stand by my observations. Cooney seems to be more explosive than Gbinije--certainly in terms of leaping ability and lateral mobility. I've never "questioned Gbinije's athleticism," I've stated my opinion based upon observation. And maybe I'm selling Gbinije short, but to me his athleticism seems more akin to a Ryan Blackwell or Preston Shumpert than the more athletic wings that we've had over the years. And to be clear, having "average" athleticism for a wing at Syracuse means that he's more athletic than 99% of the population, just that he isn't a rim rattling skywalker in the mold of Hak, Grant, Dion, MCW, or others that we've had here. I've seen little evidence to the contrary [especially after observing him in practice], but look forward to seeing what he can do in an expanded role.

#3, I think that there is some validity to the playing out of position / being asked to do new things argument. In your zeal to condemn me for putting down your favorite player, you must have missed dozens of pasts I made throughout the season where I defended Gbinije as a function of inexperience. He barely played at Duke, then sat out, and was getting his first taste of legitimate game action and NCAA competition this year, so there were bound to be growing pains. But he also got two starts this year at forward--ostensibly his more natural position--and in those two games he got a grand total of 1 rebound. Not good.

#4, that said, I didn't see much evidence of the offensive game you speak of. Here are his stats for the season:

upload_2014-4-15_9-56-21.png


What I DID see was a player who didn't do anything particularly well offensively. Shot a little better from three than I expected, given the hitch in his mechanics, but didn't finish as well as I expected. I hope that he is capable of doing more--I really do. But I'll remain skeptical until I see it on display in games. In fact, I think that BJ Johnson has the potential to be both a more potent wing scorer and a better shooter [he hasn't done it in games, either; but I'm basing that upon having watched them both in practice last year]. But bottom line: we need to collectively shoot better as a team, and Gbinije will have the opportunity--along with BJ, Buss, and Joseph--to give us a much needed infusion of complimentary outside shooting next year.

#5, For the record, I predicted last summer than Gbinije would start over Cooney in the backcourt. Then I watched the Canadain tour and got confused about his capabilities, because he seemed more heavy footed / less explosive than I expected athletically, and he didn't seem to have a refined offensive game. Then I watched him in practice and came away with the same impression. That doesn't mean that he won't improve as a function of experience. Next year, he'll go from being highly inexperienced to one of the more experienced players on the team, for having played in tough games all year long. And I expect him to improve. But I think that his scoring upside might have a lower ceiling that what you project [I could see him being about a ~7-9 ppg scorer over the next two years]. But here's the thing: THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! If that's all he achieves, he can still be a very valuable team guy who plays major minutes and contributes to a lot of team success. He'll also be counted on to provide important leadership next season as one of the veterans on the team--another important contribution--and he'll need to rise to the occasion [along with Cooney and Rak] to deliver that to an otherwise young team. Again, I see him as more of a Ryan Blackwell-esque glue guy / role player than a high scoring NBA prospect. But I don't mean that as a put down, and I'd love to be wrong.

#6, Gbinije is going to get stuck playing the role of backup point again next year, so he might not start given that the team needs his versatility in reserve. I see his ideal role as the 6th man [again] who is comfortable coming in and playing numerous positions. But in a post I made earlier this week, I actually predicted that he had a very good chance to start at the three. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

#7, scrimmages don't matter at all. While it's great to hear that Gbinije is playing well, it is virtually impossible to extrapolate how someone is playing in unstructured games and use that to predict game performance. Paul Harris was the king of scrimmages, he dominated when the unstructured games. But it is much more difficult in organized ball to properly execute half court offensive sets, to run a structured offense, to get good shots within the framework of a team offensive concept, etc.
At the end of the day, I think you're making more out of my comments than I intended, due to your rooting interest in Gbinije. I think that most posters who've read my practice reports will back me up on the fact that I'm pretty pragmatic and objective when it comes to player assessments. I like Gbiinije, and again--my active rooting interest is for SYRACUSE, the name on the front of the jersey--not the names on the back. Nothing would please me more than to see Gbinije come out next season and kill it. Based upon what I've seen, I don't necessarily expect that to happen--but I do envision that Gbinije is going to be a figural player for the remainder of his career and play an important contributing role toward a LOT of wins.

And if my assessment above end up being off-target, I'll happily admit it. Nothing would please me more than for Gbinije to emerge as the player I expected him to be heading into last summer, when I predicted he'd start ahead of Cooney.
 
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Regardless of whether DC2 is healthy I think Gbinije is stuck as the 6th man. He's the perfect Syracuse 6th man because he can come in for any of 4 players 1-4 on the court. Other than BJ the remainder of our "small forwards" in Roberson and McCullough will see a lot of time at the 4. I like G at the 3 because he makes our ball handling better and there were times this year where he was able to take advantage of his matchup and be a distributor out of the 3 spot.
 
Well said RF2044. Looking forward to both Cooney and Gbinije playing well next year and leading this team greater heights. It is really going to take a team effort.

GO ORANGE!
 
Fair was a jump shooter, and had very little if any post game.

Hak was a post player he may have taken a few jump shots, but he did not shoot more than a couple jumper per game.

Joseph was a dribble drive, jump shooter. He didn't post up much either.

Wallace I concede as a Senior was a shooter, post-up, and all around offense player.

JB wouldn't let Grant shoot the ball this year I highly doubt he would want the kid shooting more next year. He would want him using his athleticism to beat his guy off the dribble or posting up.

Grant will develop his shot more in the NBA or NBDL than he would at Syracuse. I honestly don't blame Grant for leaving because his improvements likely wouldn't have occurred if he stayed. If Grant had Fair's jump shot then I could see him coming back and wanting to win, but he doesn't.


We'll agree to disagree. Grant was taking that top of the key jumper and started taking that baseline shot some. We've never know, but for his sake I hope you're correct.
 
Ah, now your posts make a lot more sense, since you became an SU fan because of some association with Gbinije [maybe even a family member, friend, neighbor, or something along those lines]. Here are a couple of quick reactions to your post above:

#1, I root for the name on the front of the jersey, not the back. I do not root for one player on the team to succeed, but another to fail because it suits an agenda, or because I'm personally invested in only one player. I can appreciate that you have a rooting interest in Gbinije, but I don't resonate with rooting for one of our players over the others.

#2, I don't recall ever having made a specific comparison between Cooney's athleticism and Gbinije's. I think this is an example of you taking anything positive said about Cooney as a slight toward the player that you specifically root for. Trust me, I want them both to succeed. And I stand by my observations. Cooney seems to be more explosive than Gbinije--certainly in terms of leaping ability and lateral mobility. I've never "questioned Gbinije's athleticism," I've stated my opinion based upon observation. And maybe I'm selling Gbinije short, but to me his athleticism seems more akin to a Ryan Blackwell or Preston Shumpert than the more athletic wings that we've had over the years. And to be clear, having "average" athleticism for a wing at Syracuse means that he's more athletic than 99% of the population, just that he isn't a rim rattling skywalker in the mold of Hak, Grant, Dion, MCW, or others that we've had here. I've seen little evidence to the contrary [especially after observing him in practice], but look forward to seeing what he can do in an expanded role.

#3, I think that there is some validity to the playing out of position / being asked to do new things argument. In your zeal to condemn me for putting down your favorite player, you must have missed dozens of pasts I made throughout the season where I defended Gbinije as a function of inexperience. He barely played at Duke, then sat out, and was getting his first taste of legitimate game action and NCAA competition this year, so there were bound to be growing pains. But he also got two starts this year at forward--ostensibly his more natural position--and in those two games he got a grand total of 1 rebound. Not good.

#4, that said, I didn't see much evidence of the offensive game you speak of. Here are his stats for the season:

View attachment 11063

What I DID see was a player who didn't do anything particularly well offensively. Shot a little better from three than I expected, given the hitch in his mechanics, but didn't finish as well as I expected. I hope that he is capable of doing more--I really do. But I'll remain skeptical until I see it on display in games. In fact, I think that BJ Johnson has the potential to be both a more potent wing scorer and a better shooter [he hasn't done it in games, either; but I'm basing that upon having watched them both in practice last year]. But bottom line: we need to collectively shoot better as a team, and Gbinije will have the opportunity--along with BJ, Buss, and Joseph--to give us a much needed infusion of complimentary outside shooting next year.

#5, For the record, I predicted last summer than Gbinije would start over Cooney in the backcourt. Then I watched the Canadain tour and got confused about his capabilities, because he seemed more heavy footed / less explosive than I expected athletically, and he didn't seem to have a refined offensive game. Then I watched him in practice and came away with the same impression. That doesn't mean that he won't improve as a function of experience. Next year, he'll go from being highly inexperienced to one of the more experienced players on the team, for having played in tough games all year long. And I expect him to improve. But I think that his scoring upside might have a lower ceiling that what you project [I could see him being about a ~7-9 ppg scorer over the next two years]. But here's the thing: THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! If that's all he achieves, he can still be a very valuable team guy who plays major minutes and contributes to a lot of team success. He'll also be counted on to provide important leadership next season as one of the veterans on the team--another important contribution--and he'll need to rise to the occasion [along with Cooney and Rak] to deliver that to an otherwise young team. Again, I see him as more of a Ryan Blackwell-esque glue guy / role player than a high scoring NBA prospect. But I don't mean that as a put down, and I'd love to be wrong.

#6, Gbinije is going to get stuck playing the role of backup point again next year, so he might not start given that the team needs his versatility in reserve. I see his ideal role as the 6th man [again] who is comfortable coming in and playing numerous positions. But in a post I made earlier this week, I actually predicted that he had a very good chance to start at the three. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

#7, scrimmages don't matter at all. While it's great to hear that Gbinije is playing well, it is virtually impossible to extrapolate how someone is playing in unstructured games and use that to predict game performance. Paul Harris was the king of scrimmages, he dominated when the unstructured games. But it is much more difficult in organized ball to properly execute half court offensive sets, to run a structured offense, to get good shots within the framework of a team offensive concept, etc.
At the end of the day, I think you're making more out of my comments than I intended, due to your rooting interest in Gbinije. I think that most posters who've read my practice reports will back me up on the fact that I'm pretty pragmatic and objective when it comes to player assessments. I like Gbiinije, and again--my active rooting interest is for SYRACUSE, the name on the front of the jersey--not the names on the back. Nothing would please me more than to see Gbinije come out next season and kill it. Based upon what I've seen, I don't necessarily expect that to happen--but I do envision that Gbinije is going to be a figural player for the remainder of his career and play an important contributing role toward a LOT of wins.

And if my assessment above end up being off-target, I'll happily admit it. Nothing would please me more than for Gbinije to emerge as the player I expected him to be heading into last summer, when I predicted he'd start ahead of Cooney.


Those are all valid pints, well thought out and presented. But I still think Gbinije has a lot more ability than he showed last year and provided a hint of it in the Dayton game. I think he deferred to his teammates and his coach's desire that he play a "role". The role-playing may still be there next year but that role could expand if his capabilities increase or are more on display. JB, like most coaches, likes to rely on veteran players so we may see more of him doing things like this:
 

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