Another stupid question by Fat Mike

[HRE Otto IV]

I agree with the original point about math. However...

It is not set in stone that Brady is the best ever. For some reason Pats fans are more Brady fans than Pats fans. It is a team sport. Belichick and the systems on both sides of the ball have a lot to do with titles as well. It isn't just Brady, who actually had a poor game by his standards last night. Heck Atlanta missed 3 INTs the last two Pats drives.

You cannot just go by titles because then Bradshaw (who IMO isn't even Top 25) is an all time great. Also you would need to put Starr (5-1 in championship games) in the top 2, which no one thinks.

IMO Montana is #1 still and I hate Montana more than any QB who has ever lived. IMO what he did at KC is what sets him apart. He proved it wasn't just SF.

 

[dasher]

Jordan would have 8 rings had his father not been murdered and thus his mid life crisis of pursuing baseball.

He beat some.damn good teams and players along the way.

He also lost to some damn good teams and players early in his career which drove him to be what he became

I don't know about Starr being a better winner. he didn't have to 1. go though the ringer that qb's today do and 2. he didn't play in a salary cap era. All of those great Packer stars, they stayed on the packers.

 

[bpo57]

Read the Book of Basketball it is so well researched it supports these conclusions.
Russell retired when he did because he was smart. He saw the future and knew his dominance was over. I know all about the 1969 season and how the Celtics won game 7 in LA.
I also know about the Russell-Wilt rivalry reading about it.
Russell buttered up to Wilt and Wilt never realized it and it helped Russell. You go out of your way to criticize every thing I say. If you disagree either bring something to counter what I say or ignore it. I can take different opinions fine but when all the person does is say your wrong because and brings nothing I could careless if they disagree.

Russell won his 9 of his 11 titles in small 9 team NBA fact. He dominated Wilt in head to head wins wise. Wilt submarined the Warriors, was traded to Lakers and won there after Russell retired.
Kareem came into the league the year Russell retired.

Russell saw Kareem's game in college and realized he wasn't good enough at 35 to compete so he walked away. If Kareem doesn't come into the league in 1970 I believe without proof I admit that Russell plays another year as player/coach. He was player/coach his last 2 years.

I have read enough NBA history to actually know what I am talking about. Having different opinions makes debate interesting.

To the overall point I personally find Jordan and Abdul Jabbar's 6 rings each more impressive than Russell's 11 rings.

Dude, I was 12 when Russell retired so I don't need any historical lectures from you. I watched tons of those games as a kid. Russell was pretty much done by 1969. A competitor like that retiring from the Celts because a new big man entered the league? That's some of the dumbest sheet I've ever read on this message board. A 35 yo big man who spent his career racing up and down the court had little left by then. Why do you think he transitioned to being a player coach in his last year?

Keep in mind that Jabbar won one title in his first five years in the league with the Bucks. That said, Jabbar was the best offensive big man imo in history. If you could clone him from his prime he'd terrorize NBA big men today. They wouldn't have a prayer of stopping him.

Btw I don't go out of my way to criticize everything you say. You say an awful lot - I don't have enough bandwidth on my computer to criticize everything you say.

 

[bpo57]

Teams got players thru territorial draft. Boston had access to New England and got Bob Cousy/Tom Heinsohn because they went to Holy Cross. All of
the teams were stacked but the Celtics had the most
HOFers of those 9 NBA teams.
Bob Cousy and Bill Sharman were first team all NBA players with Russell.
Sam Jones and Jojo White were freaking bench players. Those Celtics teams were beyond stacked.

Sam Jones was a bench player? You're clueless. The guy was a critical part of those Celtic teams and is in the HOF. JoJo White didn't play with Russell. He came to the Celts after Russell retired and long after Sharman and Cousy.

 

[dasher]

Sam Jones was a bench player? You're clueless. The guy was a critical part of those Celtic teams and is in the HOF. JoJo White didn't play with Russell. He came to the Celts after Russell retired and long after Sharman and Cousy.

No alsacs is wrong there. Sam Jones was a great player. I think he has 9 rings. He was a starter for most of his career. the Jones boys, Sam and K.C..

 

[br801]

He dominated Wilt because he Russell made friends with Wilt and that mental game gave Russell the competitive advantage.
Wilt cared more about stats and being a celebrity and Russell just wanted to win and knew playing into Wilt's ego it would help him when they faced head to head.

Russell saw Kareem dominating in college and knew it was time to retire in 1969. Plenty of NBA writers have written on this.
Russell won his titles in a small NBA only 12 teams his last year. A majority of his career it was 9 teams.

Nobody dominated Wilt.

 

[bpo57]

Nobody dominated Wilt.

There are some great youtube videos of KAJ going against Wilt at the end of Wilt's career. Incredible battle.

 

[Alsacs]

I agree with the original point about math. However...

It is not set in stone that Brady is the best ever. For some reason Pats fans are more Brady fans than Pats fans. It is a team sport. Belichick and the systems on both sides of the ball have a lot to do with titles as well. It isn't just Brady, who actually had a poor game by his standards last night. Heck Atlanta missed 3 INTs the last two Pats drives.

You cannot just go by titles because then Bradshaw (who IMO isn't even Top 25) is an all time great. Also you would need to put Starr (5-1 in championship games) in the top 2, which no one thinks.

IMO Montana is #1 still and I hate Montana more than any QB who has ever lived. IMO what he did at KC is what sets him apart. He proved it wasn't just SF.

Missed INTs okay give the Patriots SB 42 Asante Samuel missed an Int and Mike Vrabel had a turnover stolen from on a pile by an NY OL men.
Missed INT argument is weak sauce.

What is the Belichick system? Have a smart accurate passer? Brady has made Belichick while Belichick being a genius has benefited Brady greatly. Montana freaking had Bill Walsh. Let's forgot that.
Belichick says all the time it's a players game not a coaches game.

What did he do in KC win 2 playoff games and then get housed by Buffalo in an AFC title game?
Brady is 39 and finished 2nd in the MVP race if he doesn't sit 4 games he likely wins his 3rd MVP.

Brady's career is easily better than Montana's.
Montana played without a salary cap. He had Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Dwight Clark/Brent Jones,
Roger Craig, Tom Rathman.

Brady has had a different back every 2 years, a different slot guy in every 3 years, and the only bonafide HOF he played with is Rob Gronkowski and 1 year he had Randy Moss at his end and put up at the time the greatest offensive season by a QB ever.
Brady Montana is over. I can hear argument you think Elway was a better QB because he played with inferior teams and carried them to SBs and Elway was an insane athlete during his time Michael Vick rose it to a new level but Elway was accurate and had a rocket arm like Vick.

Elway might be best All-Around QB ever. Rodgers could be better for some.
Brady passed Montana though.

 

[dasher]

Nobody dominated Wilt.

and wilt and jabbar were about the same type of scorers in 1970 or so. Russell wasn't afraid of wilt and he sure wasn't going to be afraid to play against Jabbar. By 1970, Russell was pretty much shot.

 

[bpo57]

No alsacs is wrong there. Sam Jones was a great player. I think he has 9 rings. He was a starter for most of his career. the Jones boys, Sam and K.C..

Sam Jones had six years in a row of averaging more than 20 ppg in the NBA playoffs. His mo was the bank shot.

 

[dasher]

Missed INTs okay give the Patriots SB 42 Asante Samuel missed an Int and Mike Vrabel had a turnover stolen from on a pile by an NY OL men.
Missed INT argument is weak sauce.

What is the Belichick system? Have a smart accurate passer? Brady has made Belichick when Belichick being a genius has benefited Brady.
Belichick says it's a players game.

What did he do in KC win 2 playoff games and then get housed by Buffalo in an AFC title game?
Brady is 39 and finished 2nd in the MVP race if he doesn't sit 4 games he likely wins his 3rd MVP.

Brady's career is easily better than Montana's.
Montana played without a salary cap. He had Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Dwight Clark/Brent Jones,
Roger Craig, Tom Rathman.

Brady has had a different back every 2 years, a different slot guy in every 3 years, and the only bonafide HOF he played with is Rob Gronkowski and 1 year he had Randy Moss at his end and put up at the time the greatest offensive season by a QB ever.
Brady Montana is over. I can hear argument you think Elway was a better QB because he played with inferior teams and carried them to SBs and Elway was an insane athlete during his time Michael Vick rose it to a new level but Elway was accurate and had a rocket arm like Vick.

Elway might be best All-Around QB ever. Rodgers could be better for some.
Brady passed Montana though.

I don't get the assante claim that I hear from Pats fans all the time. That was no easy catch. Pats fans make it out that it was in his bread basket. It wasn't.

 

[dasher]

Sam Jones had six years in a row of averaging more than 20 ppg in the NBA playoffs. His mo was the bank shot.

hit the big shot at the end of I think game 6 vs the Lakers in 69. The funny thing was that he was throwing it up to the rim for Russell to get the rebound. Russell wasn't in the game.

 

[bpo57]

Missed INTs okay give the Patriots SB 42 Asante Samuel missed an Int and Mike Vrabel had a turnover stolen from on a pile by an NY OL men.
Missed INT argument is weak sauce.

What is the Belichick system? Have a smart accurate passer? Brady has made Belichick while Belichick being a genius has benefited Brady greatly. Montana freaking had Bill Walsh. Let's forgot that.
Belichick says all the time it's a players game not a coaches game.

What did he do in KC win 2 playoff games and then get housed by Buffalo in an AFC title game?
Brady is 39 and finished 2nd in the MVP race if he doesn't sit 4 games he likely wins his 3rd MVP.

Brady's career is easily better than Montana's.
Montana played without a salary cap. He had Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Dwight Clark/Brent Jones,
Roger Craig, Tom Rathman.

Brady has had a different back every 2 years, a different slot guy in every 3 years, and the only bonafide HOF he played with is Rob Gronkowski and 1 year he had Randy Moss at his end and put up at the time the greatest offensive season by a QB ever.
Brady Montana is over. I can hear argument you think Elway was a better QB because he played with inferior teams and carried them to SBs and Elway was an insane athlete during his time Michael Vick rose it to a new level but Elway was accurate and had a rocket arm like Vick.

Elway might be best All-Around QB ever. Rodgers could be better for some.
Brady passed Montana though.

Roger Craig cost Montana a 5th ring by fumbling at midfield in the NFC title game with less than 2:00 to go and the 49ers up two. Bahr went on to hit his fifth FG which led to Norwood going wide right in SB XXV. Just ask Kaiser - I know he thought it was glorious.

 

[Alsacs]

Sam Jones was a bench player? You're clueless. The guy was a critical part of those Celtic teams and is in the HOF. JoJo White didn't play with Russell. He came to the Celts after Russell retired and long after Sharman and Cousy.

Whatever you are so annoying. You know everything and everyone else is a moron. I can't stand this type of arrogance. I don't care spend all time going thru your posts and finding all your mistakes. Hope you enjoyed #5 for Brady.
I am done with you and can't wait for witty superior smug response I will get from you.

 

[bpo57]

hit the big shot at the end of I think game 6 vs the Lakers in 69. The funny thing was that he was throwing it up to the rim for Russell to get the rebound. Russell wasn't in the game.

Wasn't that Don Nelson who hit a foul line jumper that hit back iron and then went straight up in the air and then straight down into the basket?

 

[Alsacs]

Roger Craig cost Montana a 5th ring by fumbling at midfield in the NFC title game with less than 2:00 to go and the 49ers up two. Bahr went on to hit his fifth FG which led to Norwood going wide right in SB XXV. Just ask Kaiser - I know he thought it was glorious.

Montana doesn't play in that SB after Leonard Marshall broke him.
He gets credit for that SB on the bench? Who knows if they beat Buffalo either.

 

[bpo57]

Whatever you are so annoying. You know everything and everyone else is a moron. I can't stand this type of arrogance. I don't care spend all time going thru your posts and finding all your mistakes. Hope you enjoyed #5 for Brady.
I am done with you and can't wait for witty superior smug response I will get from you.

You criticizing somebody else for claiming to know everything is priceless.

 

[bpo57]

Montana doesn't play in that SB after Leonard Marshall broke him.
He gets credit for that SB on the bench? Who knows if they beat Buffalo either.

He played nearly the entire game so yeah he should have gotten credit for leading SF to another SB. I'm not exactly sure he would have not played in that SB but I guess we'll never know.

 

[Alsacs]

He should have caught that.

I don't get the assante claim that I hear from Pats fans all the time. That was no easy catch. Pats fans make it out that it was in his bread basket. It wasn't.

 

[br801]

There are some great youtube videos of KAJ going against Wilt at the end of Wilt's career. Incredible battle.

Yes, even the the old, heavier Wilt was a beast.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Also IMO the coaches in the league aren't as strong as they used to be. Here is who SF and Montana beat in their SB winning seasons:

2x- Mike Ditka, Jerry Burns
1x- Ray Perkins, Tom Landry, Forrest Gregg, Bill Parcells, Don Shula, Sam Wyche, John Robinson, Dan Reeves

And he lost in the playoffs to:

3x- Parcells
1x- Joe Gibbs, Jerry Burns, Marv Levy, Don Shula

Ironically Belichick was a thorn in Montana's side.

Compared to Brady who beat:

2x- Tony Dungy, Bill Cowher
1x- Jon Gruden, Mike Martz, Jeff Fisher, John Fox, Andy Reid, John Harbaugh, Chuck Pagano, Pete Carroll, Bill O'Brien, Mike Tomlin, Dan Quinn

And lost to:

2x- Harbaugh
1x- Mike Shanahan, Dungy, Rex Ryan, John Fox, Gary Kubiak

 

[Briancuse]

Mike despises Bellichick and the Patriots.

 

[Alsacs]

You criticizing somebody else for claiming to know everything is priceless.

If wasn't you and your arrogance I would hesitate. Your act get annoying. You harp on everything you make mistakes as well. I don't pretend I am perfect and I hate wasting time with you. It is pointless.

 

[bpo57]

If wasn't you and your arrogance I would hesitate. Your act get annoying. You harp on everything you make mistakes as well. I don't pretend I am perfect and I hate wasting time with you. It is pointless.

You're taking this rather personally. Sorry to have offended you.

 

[Alsacs]

Kaiser who do Giants give credit for SB 25 Jeff Hostelter or Phil Simms?