Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion

[JeremyCuse]

For those who can't visualize it:

View attachment 163759

View attachment 163760

I was hoping that East Raynor could be reconnected to the grid as part of this project. It won't. This is far from perfect, but I don't know that it'll increase travel times. For people coming from the south on I-81, this will get people directly to Van Buren Street without having to mess with that awful East Adams intersection. The loss of connection between Fineview and streets to the west, I think, will affect outbound traffic more significantly - everyone's going to be funneled back to the east to a bottleneck at Van Buren.

I'm most disappointed that there's no mention of a future for OnTrack. The station's going to be demolished with no provision for replacement. This project should be the impetus for enhancements to transit. Shame that it isn't.

I believe Fineview is the main road that runs behind the fine lot next to the old train tracks and up to Standart, is Renwick the road that runs underneath the bridge? I am awful with street names and locations. As others have noted this doesn't appear to be a huge issue for tailgating purposes as you can come still come the back way between SU and brick city via Almond and then Van Buren Street but trying to force everyone through there at the end of games will as Tomcat noted make it a nightmare if your not tailgating post game. For those going West there is a cut through street or two via Brick City that maybe an option versus waiting god knows how long in traffic.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Agree. Part of the traffic problem stems from the lack of east-west access to West Campus. The NYSDOT proposal does nothing to solve this. Not sure what the solution is, but for a long time I've argued that reconnecting East Raynor - which could get people out of the mess and over to Salina, West, Geddes, and a bunch of other options - would help a lot. But their work with the NYS&W line will prevent that.

Weeknight basketball games are getting increasingly unpleasant for me, too. (Of course, getting home late at night would be more tolerable if I'd just watched an enjoyable Syracuse-style up-tempo basketball game, but I digress...) If you don't mind the 12-minute walk up the hill, I'd recommend looking into lots or garages down near Syracuse Stage. Much quicker traffic dispersement down there. I think all of us non-experts can agree that SPD's traffic management on West Campus is illogical and seems to make matters worse.

Do we have any idea when the construction will force the road closures. I know the Grid has been officially picked but I am thinking this is still a few years off no? I mean it is Syracuse so maybe many years, lol.

 

[sutomcat]

Agree. Part of the traffic problem stems from the lack of east-west access to West Campus. The NYSDOT proposal does nothing to solve this. Not sure what the solution is, but for a long time I've argued that reconnecting East Raynor - which could get people out of the mess and over to Salina, West, Geddes, and a bunch of other options - would help a lot. But their work with the NYS&W line will prevent that.

Weeknight basketball games are getting increasingly unpleasant for me, too. (Of course, getting home late at night would be more tolerable if I'd just watched an enjoyable Syracuse-style up-tempo basketball game, but I digress...) If you don't mind the 12-minute walk up the hill, I'd recommend looking into lots or garages down near Syracuse Stage. Much quicker traffic dispersement down there. I think all of us non-experts can agree that SPD's traffic management on West Campus is illogical and seems to make matters worse.

Yup. The best things this community has going for it are Syracuse University and SUNY Upstate. Worst of the worst effects of I-81, IMHO, is that it has served as a wall preventing spin off development from those entities westward.

How can you get rid of I81 and not open up access to the SU campus and medical complex from the west? This is our one chance to fix this long standing issue. I would hate to see it thrown away. Is it possible plans could still be changed?

 

[JeremyCuse]

We all go back to the Fine Lot and listen to Jeremy break down the game in a way that only he can.

Hey, when your a dozen beers deep and you just lost to Middle Tenn your going to get a few gems. Hopefully this years home schedule will go as well as last years and the breakdowns will be mostly positive and led by Tomcat in his high upper management voice and hand movements.

 

[OttoMets]

Do we have any idea when the construction will force the road closures. I know the Grid has been officially picked but I am thinking this is still a few years off no? I mean it is Syracuse so maybe many years, lol.

Fall 2021 at the earliest, I think.

 

[JeffCuse]

i dont get why, if trying to connect the city as much as possible seems to be a goal, they arent connecting Raynor back to Renwick somehow. Seems silly.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Fine Lot

 

[Noexcuse]

I don't want to speak for anyone but myself.

For me, I have never noticed the noise of the highway when I am at the Fine Lot. Sirens from firetrucks and ambulances maybe.

As you know, I come from the north to games. I take I-81. If there is little traffic at the Harrison exit, I will take it and go the Fine Lot from Almond, under I-81. If it is backed up there, I continue on I-81, get off on Brighton, and take State to Castle/MLK and then Fineview. This is how I go most of the time. Going this way, I have never been backed up into traffic and it consistently provides smooth, easy access to the Fine or Standart Lots (I park at Standart for basketball).

When I leave after games, I almost always retrace my steps down Fineview, down Castle/MLK to State, then get off on Colvin and get on I-81N there. The traffic getting on I-81N from the nightmare bottleneck from the West lots is typically only starting to emerge on to the highway, and I find I can even merge onto I-690E if I need to without much problem.

If I go from Fine or Standart through the bottleneck directly north, and try to drive under I-81N on Almond and get on I-81N near Harrison, I find I get delayed an extra 10-20 minutes; more for big games or games I stayed to the very end for. This isn't a huge deal for football games during the day or even weekend night football games. It is irritating and I acknowledge I am spoiled living in CNY where we typically don't have to deal with traffic much but if I can avoid getting stuck in traffic for 20 minutes, I will do it every time.

This is a huge issue for weekday night basketball games. I can't be getting home from those games at 10:00, 10:30 or later.

I am sure the community grid will do some good things for the area but implementing it takes away a really good option for getting to and getting from games from the north.

Couple that with the change we are talking about here and the bottleneck heading north from the West lots that has been problem becomes an enormous problem. At least for me. If I want to get home at a reasonable time from a 7 pm basketball game, I think my only shot will be to park at Manley or Skytop, take I-481 all the way around the eastern part of the county and backtrack to Liverpool from Bear.

On the map you posted, it looks like Fineview will survive and allow people to drive south, past Standart. If one could drive down to say the Oakwood cemetery main entrance, and then ride a bridge over the railroad tracks and the highway formerly known as I-81 to get on Oakwood east of there, there would be a reasonable way to access the West lots from the south.

They need to provide that. It would make a huge difference to have another means of ingress/egress there. Just my opinion.

You might consider following State a little farther than Colvin and go to Brighton. Take Brighton past Ainsley Drive towards the current 481 Interchange which is where the 81 bypass is going to be.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I think all of us non-experts can agree that SPD's traffic management on West Campus is illogical and seems to make matters worse.

It's so evident that if they just let people drive normally, traffic lights and stop signs will do a better job of managing traffic flow than the cops, who funnel everyone into the same few streets to exit the area.

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

For those who can't visualize it:

View attachment 163759

View attachment 163760

I was hoping that East Raynor could be reconnected to the grid as part of this project. It won't. This is far from perfect, but I don't know that it'll increase travel times. For people coming from the south on I-81, this will get people directly to Van Buren Street without having to mess with that awful East Adams intersection. The loss of connection between Fineview and streets to the west, I think, will affect outbound traffic more significantly - everyone's going to be funneled back to the east to a bottleneck at Van Buren.

I'm most disappointed that there's no mention of a future for OnTrack. The station's going to be demolished with no provision for replacement. This project should be the impetus for enhancements to transit. Shame that it isn't.

Maybe a dumb question? How can it be a "grid" when there are no roads running east-west bisecting it?

 

[maxxyz]

Yup. The best things this community has going for it are Syracuse University and SUNY Upstate. Worst of the worst effects of I-81, IMHO, is that it has served as a wall preventing spin off development from those entities westward.

How can you get rid of I81 and not open up access to the SU campus and medical complex from the west? This is our one chance to fix this long standing issue. I would hate to see it thrown away. Is it possible plans could still be changed?

Are we sure that that the SU administration want more access to the campus? Their long term plan has been to reduce traffic on campus and they have been involved in the conversations on the grid project. If they wanted the road reopened wouldn't they have pushed for it? They've had alot of input.

 

[OttoMets]

Maybe a dumb question? How can it be a "grid" when there are no roads running east-west bisecting it?

Fair question. It'll be a grid north of Burt Street (except for Monroe and Madison and a couple other streets that will remain unconnected). Near West Campus, it's looking like a grid in name only. Obviously the rail line and the topography create some major obstacles, but you've pointed out a real irony.

 

[sufandu]

As attendance consistently increases, hopefully Centro will start some shuttles from other areas for people looking to avoid traffic that don't tailgait. When I lived up there and had season tickets I caught the shuttle at Great Northern. From what I've read on here, that's not a good option anymore, but I would think other areas could work, at the very least Destiny.

 

[dooey139]

As attendance consistently increases, hopefully Centro will start some shuttles from other areas for people looking to avoid traffic that don't tailgait. When I lived up there and had season tickets I caught the shuttle at Great Northern. From what I've read on here, that's not a good option anymore, but I would think other areas could work, at the very least Destiny.

I'd keep an eye on this page, SU Football Game Day Express , IIRC they had shuttles from Great Northern and Shoppingtown last year for football.

 

[sufandu]

I'd keep an eye on this page, SU Football Game Day Express , IIRC they had shuttles from Great Northern and Shoppingtown last year for football.

I don't live up there anymore, but when I make the trip up for a game sometime, I'll have to check it out. Thanks.

Interestingly, I was told by someone on here they would never do a shuttle from Great Northern again because it's a dead mall, as if the success of the mall mattered to a service that really only wants a large accessible parking lot.

 

[Cheriehoop]

I don't live up there anymore, but when I make the trip up for a game sometime, I'll have to check it out. Thanks.

Interestingly, I was told by someone on here they would never do a shuttle from Great Northern again because it's a dead mall, as if the success of the mall mattered to a service that really only wants a large accessible parking lot.

Centro had announced that they were stopping service to Great Northern about 2 months ago. There was some pushback so they have resumed it temporarily. I imagine they will eventually stop all service which will absolutely kill the dying mall.

Fusillo has already been using the northwest parking lots to store their new cars but there is plenty of room still. I think there was a proposal for developing the mall for housing. Seneca Mall is another option for a park and ride to the dome. It used to be a park n ride for the State Fair. I don’t know how bus access has been affected by all the campus and dome changes too though. If people have to still walk a good distance after a bus ride, I doubt it will be extremely successful.

The University and city have to make up their mind whether they want all the headaches and benefits of a fully accessible city campus or not. This half way stuff really makes it a nightmare for big events that the university has. Three of the 5 Syracuse area hospitals sharing the immediate campus’ footprint only complicates matters for both the community and the university. Has anyone tried to visit a patient on a game Day? I have and it’s horrendous.

 

[721Comstock]

Has anyone tried to visit a patient on a game Day? I have and it’s horrendous.

You see? That's just them being a bad fan.
They should have planned their injury and/or illness for a non-gameday.

 

[OttoMets]

...

The University and city have to make up their mind whether they want all the headaches and benefits of a fully accessible city campus or not. This half way stuff really makes it a nightmare for big events that the university has. Three of the 5 Syracuse area hospitals sharing the immediate campus’ footprint only complicates matters for both the community and the university. Has anyone tried to visit a patient on a game Day? I have and it’s horrendous.

Nice post, especially this. SU's been trying to have it both ways for three administrations now and it doesn't work particularly well for fans, visitors, or neighbors (or students/prospective students, apparently, which is why they keep pouring millions into these new infrastructure fads, trying to fix some perceived problem that they created a few years ago with their last expensive fad).

 

[sufandu]

Centro had announced that they were stopping service to Great Northern about 2 months ago. There was some pushback so they have resumed it temporarily. I imagine they will eventually stop all service which will absolutely kill the dying mall.

Fusillo has already been using the northwest parking lots to store their new cars but there is plenty of room still. I think there was a proposal for developing the mall for housing. Seneca Mall is another option for a park and ride to the dome. It used to be a park n ride for the State Fair. I don’t know how bus access has been affected by all the campus and dome changes too though. If people have to still walk a good distance after a bus ride, I doubt it will be extremely successful.

The University and city have to make up their mind whether they want all the headaches and benefits of a fully accessible city campus or not. This half way stuff really makes it a nightmare for big events that the university has. Three of the 5 Syracuse area hospitals sharing the immediate campus’ footprint only complicates matters for both the community and the university. Has anyone tried to visit a patient on a game Day? I have and it’s horrendous.

Normal Centro service is different than the gameday shuttles they ran. When I used it you parked at the outskirts of the parking lot on the toys r us side and they picked up 1 1/2 hours before kickoff and returned immediately after the game. Regardless of what happens to the mall, it remains a large parking lot to use.

If not there, it makes sense to have something available somewhere for people coming from the north that don't want to fight traffic.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Nice post, especially this. SU's been trying to have it both ways for three administrations now and it doesn't work particularly well for fans, visitors, or neighbors (or students/prospective students, apparently, which is why they keep pouring millions into these new infrastructure fads, trying to fix some perceived problem that they created a few years ago with their last expensive fad).

These are all the best compromises for a non-ideal situation such as having a major sports venue in the middle of crowded campus. Moderately to dense urban development just isn't compatible with a huge inflow and outflow of single driver cars. Parking lots are an awful waste of valuable property.

I know there were tremendous hurdles to this, but if you can avoid putting venues like this in areas that aren't meant for a lot of vehicles, you don't. Basically, if you boil it down, SU and the City didn't want to pay for a new stadium in a more accessible location and they're passing the costs onto the fans who pay for it by collectively waiting in traffic for 20 minutes. That said, I think traffic flow around SU events is surprisingly good. I've been to venues that are utter shite for traffic flow despite being in the middle of nowheres.

However, I agree that these are definitely things that SU (as the area's largest employer and destination) should be feverishly working with regional DOT, NYSDOT, and Feds to make sure they are addressed. BUT self-inflicted complications don't gives some property owners rights over other property owners. And railways especially are notoriously tough to deal with regarding their rights.

 

[OttoMets]

These are all the best compromises for a non-ideal situation such as having a major sports venue in the middle of crowded campus. Moderately to dense urban development just isn't compatible with a huge inflow and outflow of single driver cars. Parking lots are an awful waste of valuable property.

I know there were tremendous hurdles to this, but if you can avoid putting venues like this in areas that aren't meant for a lot of vehicles, you don't. Basically, if you boil it down, SU and the City didn't want to pay for a new stadium in a more accessible location and they're passing the costs onto the fans who pay for it by collectively waiting in traffic for 20 minutes. That said, I think traffic flow around SU events is surprisingly good. I've been to venues that are utter shite for traffic flow despite being in the middle of nowheres.

However, I agree that these are definitely things that SU (as the area's largest employer and destination) should be feverishly working with regional DOT, NYSDOT, and Feds to make sure they are addressed. BUT self-inflicted complications don't gives some property owners rights over other property owners. And railways especially are notoriously tough to deal with regarding their rights.

Good points. My complaints boil down to two or three areas where I think progress can be made:

1) Get OnTrack back. Self-explanatory - one more possibility for people to not bring a car to an area that doesn't have a ton of room for cars? Make it happen!
2) Quit hacking away at the grid. In an area with congestion, let's not further restrict mobility. Closing University Place and College Place put too much burden on surrounding streets, causing more gridlock, that SU and the city haven't worked strategically to reduce. Forcing extra turning movements on all SU's buses on Comstock really gums up the works on game days.
3) Go after low-hanging fruit in terms of parking priority and dynamic pricing. If Campus West residents want a car on campus, they should pay a lot. If they're going to bump decades-long SU tailgaters from lots for this privilege, they should pay even more.

 

[Fly Rodder]

3) Go after low-hanging fruit in terms of parking priority and dynamic pricing. If Campus West residents want a car on campus, they should pay a lot. If they're going to bump decades-long SU tailgaters from lots for this privilege, they should pay even more

I disagree. Visitors to the campus and events, even if they are longstanding tailgaters, should be the ones paying much much more for the privilege.


(Hot take: I really dislike parking lots and I'd be happy to see them go).

 

[Newhouser]

Good points. My complaints boil down to two or three areas where I think progress can be made:

1) Get OnTrack back. Self-explanatory - one more possibility for people to not bring a car to an area that doesn't have a ton of room for cars? Make it happen!
2) Quit hacking away at the grid. In an area with congestion, let's not further restrict mobility. Closing University Place and College Place put too much burden on surrounding streets, causing more gridlock, that SU and the city haven't worked strategically to reduce. Forcing extra turning movements on all SU's buses on Comstock really gums up the works on game days.
3) Go after low-hanging fruit in terms of parking priority and dynamic pricing. If Campus West residents want a car on campus, they should pay a lot. If they're going to bump decades-long SU tailgaters from lots for this privilege, they should pay even more.

IF On-Track could make money don't you think it would already be back? Who's re-opening it? I don't buy that there will be enough traffic for the right price point to make it profitable.

 

[OttoMets]

I disagree. Visitors to the campus and events, even if they are longstanding tailgaters, should be the ones paying much much more for the privilege.


(Hot take: I really dislike parking lots and I'd be happy to see them go).

The way I see it, if SU chooses to have a football team, they need fans. To get fans, they need some kind of tailgating culture. And to support tailgating, they need on-site surface parking (which I really don't like in most contexts as well, for the record).

On the other hand, like 20,000 SU students get by in their walkable urban environment every day without a car, evidence that car ownership -- to say nothing of car availability right near the core of main campus -- is not a necessary part of student life at SU.

So while I agree that students should take priority over visitors in most cases, I don't think their contribution to the institution is as dependent on 8-hour blocks of car storage as the tailgaters' is.

 

[rrlbees]

It's so evident that if they just let people drive normally, traffic lights and stop signs will do a better job of managing traffic flow than the cops, who funnel everyone into the same few streets to exit the area.

I long for the days when the crowds were just as big as now but there were no cops on the street corners and people could also park on the streets such as Henry St. It’s more of a mess now.