Noel

[armory]

There's recruiting information, and then there's recruiting information.

Glad you cleared that up for us.

It's more than just average fans. Even huge fans don't feel like spending over $100 a year for a couple bball tidbits in between two thousand profiles of 2-star football prospects.

 

[Francis03]

Francis, are you going to Rumble in the Bronx this year? Maybe we can meet up again. It looks like my work schedule should calm down at the beginning of the summer.

Thinking about heading down to the Tournament of Champions too.

mason

I would love to link up with you at one of these events. Rumble sounds good, I just hope it isn't as spread out with the venues like last. Not sure if you know that the NCAA passed a rule that AAU events couldn't occur on college campuses. I think a few companies were able to work around it with certain contract clauses but events like the TOC and Rumble was hurt big time.

Gibbons actually moved his tourney to the Georgia for the open period in late April.

 

[Czar]

There's recruiting information, and then there's recruiting information.

Some information always stays in one of those categories. Other information moves from one bucket to the other depending on the time of the recruiting calendar as well as activity involving other recruits.

The information for "average fans" is already out there. It always has been.

"The information for poor fans has always been out there."

 

[Francis03]

Speaking of length. One of the reasons why the staff loves Noah Vonleh is because he measures in at currently 6'8 216 with a 7'3 wingspan, which is huge for the zone. Vonleh can already play the 3 and 4, but if he gets a little bigger he could also possibly play the middle as well. Lots of versatility there.

 

[Garbs]

Speaking of length. One of the reasons why the staff loves Noah Vonleh is because he measures in at currently 6'8 216 with a 7'3 wingspan, which is huge for the zone. Vonleh can already play the 3 and 4, but if he gets a little bigger he could also possibly play the middle as well. Lots of versatility there.

so he is exactly Southerland's size then?

 

[armory]

Speaking of length. One of the reasons why the staff loves Noah Vonleh is because he measures in at currently 6'8 216 with a 7'3 wingspan, which is huge for the zone. Vonleh can already play the 3 and 4, but if he gets a little bigger he could also possibly play the middle as well. Lots of versatility there.

I've kinda taken a break from researching recruiting info due to how much talent we will already have for the next few years, but Vonleh has been the one recruit I can't help but get excited about. I usually look for 3 things when evaluating recruits: fundamentals, personality, and ceiling. While I still don't know much of his personality, Vonleh has excellent fundamentals for a player his size & seemingly no ceiling... and there's no question that he would be a perfect fit for playing a wing in the zone. I would probably describe him as a slightly longer CJ who can also face up and take someone off the dribble.

 

[Moontan]

Oh, so what you really mean is that those who want to feel elitist can spend money to get info that everyone would want for free.

No, that's not what I said and that's not what I mean. Don't make stuff up.

There is information that is not suitable for discussion in an open forum. Is it really that hard to understand?

While the deep insider stuff should always remain quiet, there are nuggets and rationale that fall in between the two worlds.

The Premium Board is also a good place to go when the regular board goes through some crazy phases.

 

[EastCoast2]

No, that's not what I said and that's not what I mean. Don't make stuff up.

There is information that is not suitable for discussion in an open forum. Is it really that hard to understand?

While the deep insider stuff should always remain quiet, there are nuggets and rationale that fall in between the two worlds.

The Premium Board is also a good place to go when the regular board goes through some crazy phases.

There's a Fine board for that

 

[MikeSU02]

No, that's not what I said and that's not what I mean. Don't make stuff up.

There is information that is not suitable for discussion in an open forum. Is it really that hard to understand?

While the deep insider stuff should always remain quiet, there are nuggets and rationale that fall in between the two worlds.

The Premium Board is also a good place to go when the regular board goes through some crazy phases.

I agree with the spirit of your post, but in reality, if you are putting something that is only secured by a paywall, you are still putting it in an open forum. Honestly, if someone posted something that only 100 people can see instead of 5000, sure there is limited visibility, but no one will have signed an NDA or anything like that. I know we use that filter to entice people to purchase the premium boards, but let's be honest, you aren't reaching a moral high ground/level or responsibility by putting information on a pay forum versus a free forum.

And I'd argue that when the main board goes through some crazy phases that the more calm and level-headed posters should be posting even more rather than avoiding it to help bring it back to normal.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

"One of the things that JB does better than just about anyone is getting kids who fit the system."

Hey Mason! I know you are busy. But I miss your insights.

A thought. I wonder if JB's skill at "getting kids who fit the system" may have something to do with why so many appear to underachieve at the next level. Perhaps our system showcases their strengths and masks some of their weaknesses.

I always thought the bolded statement was bunk. JB tries to get the best players - usually offensive. He would then adapt to their skills.

I suppose you could think athletic, lanky forwards. But last year we had RJ, who was none of those things. And what school doesn't want athletic forwards?

Who was the good fit for our system J Flynn or MCW? One was small and super quick, the other a big tall passer. What about between AO and Fab? GMac was a deadly shooter, but Devo was an insane driver to the hoop. And what about Paul Harris? He didn't fit anyones definition but you don't turn him down - you bring in the (close to) McD and try and make it work.

Who is the last McD, or really good player, that JB has turned down because he wasn't a good fit for his system? JB adjusts his system to accomodate the good players, it isn't like he turning his nose up at these McDs and saying "you're just a bad fit". What system are you talking about anyway - the zone- or the outscoring the other team thing? Because I haven't seen JB turn down a dynamite offense player yet. He adjusts the zone to make up for the defensive deficencies of the individual players.

It seems like a recent phenmenon that he has had players that are good on defense. Usually he is hiding someone in there (and actually I think he still is - KJo has looked shaky at best lately - that Cincy game was a nightmare).

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

Usually he is hiding someone in there (and actually I think he still is - KJo has looked shaky at best lately - that Cincy game was a nightmare).

When has KJo ever been good on the wing? He is slow to react and cheats up too much. Never sees whats behind him. If I were Wisc, I would sneak a guy underneath him on the baseline every possession.

 

[Moontan]

I agree with the spirit of your post, but in reality, if you are putting something that is only secured by a paywall, you are still putting it in an open forum. Honestly, if someone posted something that only 100 people can see instead of 5000, sure there is limited visibility, but no one will have signed an NDA or anything like that. I know we use that filter to entice people to purchase the premium boards, but let's be honest, you aren't reaching a moral high ground/level or responsibility by putting information on a pay forum versus a free forum.

And I'd argue that when the main board goes through some crazy phases that the more calm and level-headed posters should be posting even more rather than avoiding it to help bring it back to normal.

The paywall limits visibility. Violators are booted. It seemed to work fairly well in the past.
This has nothing to do with a "moral high ground".

Let's just say that some of us would simply like to go back to a setup that we've had for years in the past.
I'll shut up now...

 

[Sgt Cuse]

When has KJo ever been good on the wing? He is slow to react and cheats up too much. Never sees whats behind him. If I were Wisc, I would sneak a guy underneath him on the baseline every possession.

I think KJo needs to up his game on D. And get a little more aggressive for rebounds too.

I think offensively this may be a game where SU is going to be counting on him. Wisky is known to have several big white stiffs on the court and one will probably be on him. KJo needs to do some damage there. Blow by his guy but be careful to avoid the charge -those are really hurtful fouls.

 

[iommi]

I think KJo needs to up his game on D. And get a little more aggressive for rebounds too.

I think offensively this may be a game where SU is going to be counting on him. Wisky is known to have several big white stiffs on the court and one will probably be on him. KJo needs to do some damage there. Blow by his guy but be careful to avoid the charge -those are really hurtful fouls.

Wisconsin happens to be really good at drawing charges too.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I always took the NBA quote to mean Tobias Harris and his pappy.

It is my understanding that we recruited ADavis as hard as we possibly could, right down to the wire, but it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that he wouldn't be coming here.

That makes sense. Thanks.

 

[MikeSU02]

The paywall limits visibility. Violators are booted. It seemed to work fairly well in the past.
This has nothing to do with a "moral high ground".

Let's just say that some of us would simply like to go back to a setup that we've had for years in the past.
I'll shut up now...

Hey, I'm happy to pay (I paid at our last location-that-shall-not-be-named). But I'd pay just to help the board pay off costs. I take all the other stuff as bonus.

 

[IthacaMatt]

It is a combination of all of these things. It has been awhile since I went to any of the camps (last one was 2008), but I've seen firsthand how they work. Hop usually has a list of kids to check out and evaluate, sometimes as many as 35 to 50 at a single camp. Usually these are kids who have at least expressed interest in SU, or are so highly touted that we need to get a look anyway (you can never start scouting your opponents' players too early - seriously, we'll take a good look at other Big East kids that we know we won't get, just so we know what we're up against in the future). Boeheim comes in later in the week and works with Hop to decide on who to follow closest.

From there, the list starts to get whittled down. Things can become complicated - you need to scope out the kid's character - do they have the grades, are they headache off the court? that kind of thing. I remember our recruitment of the Dorsey kid who went to Memphis. We really wanted him, but he didn't even HAVE a transcript, so we backed off. I was told that he would never play a game of D1 ball because his academic situation was so bad. Most coaches tend to put up with more headaches with really talented kids, and back off the headache kids that are middling talents. Nature of the business.

Things are definitely different in some respects these days, obviously we've got new guys on the road, and another major factor is that we can bring in kids with the Syracuse Elite camp. This has been a huge boon to the program. I've never seen it firsthand, but the staff gets an excellent chance for firsthand analysis of the kids. Plus they're on campus so you get to know if they get into trouble off the court, so you know who's a headache right out of the gate. But even more important is the fact that the coaches get to evaluate the kids skill sets - they get to see more than just the games, they get to see the shooting, passing, defensive drills, etc. So they have a better read on if a kid can fit into the system or not.

One of the things that JB does better than just about anyone is getting kids who fit the system. The Elite camp really helps in that respect.

I could probably go on and with this, but it's already approaching a novel.

Mason

Great post. Thanks for sharing. Prior to the Elite Camp, which I agree has been tremendous, and has changed our recruiting process, I don't think we were quite so great at recruiting to the system for a few years.

Post-2003, we had some guys who didn't fit the usual profile like Dayshawn Wright - undersized PF, Paul Harris - undersized PF who had some wing / Stevie Thompson kind of skills, but was never deployed that way on offense. Jonny Flynn was undersized compared to the kind of guys we usually like at PG (bigger, taller guys, usually).

I think the recruiting has gotten a lot more targeted since the Harris / Flynn group passed thru - those guys got us reconnected to McDonald's AA's, so that part was necessary and good for our profile, but it was only with our return to prominence (and recovery from a couple NITs) that we really started choosing the best fits for the system, IMO.

 

[TinyManInside]

I always thought the bolded statement was bunk. JB tries to get the best players - usually offensive. He would then adapt to their skills.

I suppose you could think athletic, lanky forwards. But last year we had RJ, who was none of those things. And what school doesn't want athletic forwards?

Who was the good fit for our system J Flynn or MCW? One was small and super quick, the other a big tall passer. What about between AO and Fab? GMac was a deadly shooter, but Devo was an insane driver to the hoop. And what about Paul Harris? He didn't fit anyones definition but you don't turn him down - you bring in the (close to) McD and try and make it work.

Who is the last McD, or really good player, that JB has turned down because he wasn't a good fit for his system? JB adjusts his system to accomodate the good players, it isn't like he turning his nose up at these McDs and saying "you're just a bad fit". What system are you talking about anyway - the zone- or the outscoring the other team thing? Because I haven't seen JB turn down a dynamite offense player yet. He adjusts the zone to make up for the defensive deficencies of the individual players.

It seems like a recent phenmenon that he has had players that are good on defense. Usually he is hiding someone in there (and actually I think he still is - KJo has looked shaky at best lately - that Cincy game was a nightmare).

First off, of course you are going to go for top level talent when it becomes available to you, even if it's not a complete fit for the system. That's a no brainer, and some of the examples that you bring up fit the bill exactly. Of course you're going to sometimes take players that are outside of the system, either because of shear talent, or because sometimes you can't be too choosy.

But also, consider what happened with Harris, 3 years of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. RJ played at least 60% of his career minutes at the center position. Lack of mobility on the wings flatout hurts the zone.

And you're wrong if you think they that don't recruit with an eye towards their system. For nearly a decade, I went to every summer camp I could and spent a lot of time following who they were targeting and scouting. Often times they would look at guys that the recruiting sites wouldn't even list us as being interested in, and there was usually a common theme when it came to forwards - multidimensional, long, agile, good hops. I know for a fact that we could have had Kevin Jones but we passed on him because we felt that he was a poor fit for the zone and our offensive sets. I'm sure there are others but a lot of the decisions happen behind closed doors.

Mason

 

[Sgt Cuse]

First off, of course you are going to go for top level talent when it becomes available to you, even if it's not a complete fit for the system. That's a no brainer, and some of the examples that you bring up fit the bill exactly. Of course you're going to sometimes take players that are outside of the system, either because of shear talent, or because sometimes you can't be too choosy.

But also, consider what happened with Harris, 3 years of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. RJ played at least 60% of his career minutes at the center position. Lack of mobility on the wings flatout hurts the zone.

And you're wrong if you think they that don't recruit with an eye towards their system. For nearly a decade, I went to every summer camp I could and spent a lot of time following who they were targeting and scouting. Often times they would look at guys that the recruiting sites wouldn't even list us as being interested in, and there was usually a common theme when it came to forwards - multidimensional, long, agile, good hops. I know for a fact that we could have had Kevin Jones but we passed on him because we felt that he was a poor fit for the zone and our offensive sets. I'm sure there are others but a lot of the decisions happen behind closed doors.

Mason

I'll concede JB could be looking for a specific type of forward. But for everyone else, if they had been a big time scorer, he will make a place.

But I don't think SU was a selector school before. I think SU is getting to that level now. And when we get to that level I think we may see more of what type JB wants. I think that may be starting to show in MCW.

I also disagree with the sentiment that because of the way JB is recruiting SU isn't getting players into the league. Carmelo, Hakeem, Wes, and now KJo in the last 10 years. That's plenty.

 

[orangepassion]

First off, of course you are going to go for top level talent when it becomes available to you, even if it's not a complete fit for the system. That's a no brainer, and some of the examples that you bring up fit the bill exactly. Of course you're going to sometimes take players that are outside of the system, either because of shear talent, or because sometimes you can't be too choosy.

But also, consider what happened with Harris, 3 years of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. RJ played at least 60% of his career minutes at the center position. Lack of mobility on the wings flatout hurts the zone.

And you're wrong if you think they that don't recruit with an eye towards their system. For nearly a decade, I went to every summer camp I could and spent a lot of time following who they were targeting and scouting. Often times they would look at guys that the recruiting sites wouldn't even list us as being interested in, and there was usually a common theme when it came to forwards - multidimensional, long, agile, good hops. I know for a fact that we could have had Kevin Jones but we passed on him because we felt that he was a poor fit for the zone and our offensive sets. I'm sure there are others but a lot of the decisions happen behind closed doors.

Mason

I can confirm about Kevin Jones from speaking to one of his HS teammates at a summer event at Philly U. a few years ago. Apparently, he camped at SU and really wanted to come to SU for a long time. Wouldn't have mind having him next to Kris Jo at Forward this year instead of using the scholie on Mookie.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I always thought the bolded statement was bunk. JB tries to get the best players - usually offensive. He would then adapt to their skills.

I suppose you could think athletic, lanky forwards. But last year we had RJ, who was none of those things. And what school doesn't want athletic forwards?

Who was the good fit for our system J Flynn or MCW? One was small and super quick, the other a big tall passer. What about between AO and Fab? GMac was a deadly shooter, but Devo was an insane driver to the hoop. And what about Paul Harris? He didn't fit anyones definition but you don't turn him down - you bring in the (close to) McD and try and make it work.

Who is the last McD, or really good player, that JB has turned down because he wasn't a good fit for his system? JB adjusts his system to accomodate the good players, it isn't like he turning his nose up at these McDs and saying "you're just a bad fit". What system are you talking about anyway - the zone- or the outscoring the other team thing? Because I haven't seen JB turn down a dynamite offense player yet. He adjusts the zone to make up for the defensive deficencies of the individual players.

It seems like a recent phenmenon that he has had players that are good on defense. Usually he is hiding someone in there (and actually I think he still is - KJo has looked shaky at best lately - that Cincy game was a nightmare).

How about Tony Wroten, who seemed to be begging to come here. There are a few of those guys out there, if you want to take the time to look back.

 

[SmilinBob]

I remember years ago when Boeheim said "Once we get to be a selector like Louisville, then you'll know we're at the elite stage" paraphrased of course but I'd have to say we definitely are at that stage and it feels pretty good.

 

[orangemass]

I remember years ago when Boeheim said "Once we get to be rejected like Rutgers, then you'll know we're at the bottom of the barrel stage" paraphrased of course but I'd have to say we definitely are not at that stage and it feels pretty good.

Fixed...

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I remember years ago when Boeheim said "Once we get to be a selector like Louisville, then you'll know we're at the elite stage" paraphrased of course but I'd have to say we definitely are at that stage and it feels pretty good.

I think with all the services out there the identification of the cream of the crop does not look difficult. The A Davis and N Noels of the world are pretty common knowledge. And you don't turn your nose up at them because they might not fit in your system. You adapt your system to fit them, and I think JB does a great job of that.

Recruiting the 4 year players, the ones who will not start right away, is an undervalued skill. Extrapolating the growth, attitude, and maturation of a player is tough to do, but can pay big dividends if done correctly. In these instances I think judging how they fit may come into play. And this fit is as much mental as physical. These players are going to have to work and perfect their skills to fit the role in front of them. It's great to see these players evolve.

 

[TinyManInside]

Recruiting the 4 year players, the ones who will not start right away, is an undervalued skill. Extrapolating the growth, attitude, and maturation of a player is tough to do, but can pay big dividends if done correctly. In these instances I think judging how they fit may come into play. And this fit is as much mental as physical. These players are going to have to work and perfect their skills to fit the role in front of them. It's great to see these players evolve.

this has been exactly my point all along.