Recruiting higher rated kids.

[wiseman3]

OK -- so I quoted a ton of messages here but I think college football recruiting is one of the most misunderstood topics on this board and, presumably, on any board outside of maybe Alabama and a few of the bluebloods.

The star system essentially works in basketball but is essentially trash in college football, which seems ridiculous to say until you think about it. In basketball, most teams are bringing in 2-4 recruits and those recruits that end up at P5 and higher end programs are not only smaller in number (let's say 250-300) kids but for the most part they are already aggregated. They all play for the same AAU teams (for the most part) which not only puts them all in the same place on many weekends throughout the year, but also puts them head-to-head against similar competition.

For football, you have camps but that's about it. Otherwise there are thousands of kids to rank each year and for many of those kids they are spread far and wide across the U.S. What that creates is a simple reality: That is to say there are way too many variables at play to accurately figure out if the 3-star running back from Massachusetts is a better recruit than the 3-star linebacker from Nevada. It's why a kid like Derrell Smith or Jay Bromley can be added late, with little fanfare to a class and have no recruiting pedigree, but turn out to be a great player.

To illustrate the point, here are a couple things that I think make it really hard to actually assess how a class is doing:

1. No one knows 100% where a kid will ultimately end up or how hard a kid will work the next four or five years. In hoops, this stuff is baked in. But in football a kid may be a borderline DB recruit but turn into a great linebacker. Derrell Smith as a nobody RB who turned into a really good LB is a great example. And the S&C portion of this is huge b/c most kids who aren't 5 stars need to develop at the college level. There's no way for a random talent evaluator to accurately predict that for the hundreds (thousands?) of kids he sees each year.

2. How does a kid fit into a system? It's fine to rank kids but where they end up ultimately has something to do with how successful they are.

3. Syracuse never has and, unless Babers wins a ton and pulls off a complete miracle, never will land classes comprised largely of 4- and 5-star recruits. We live with 2- and 3-star recruits b/c very few schools can afford to do otherwise. We are in upstate ny, we aren't a traditional power (at least financially), facilities and game day atmosphere are ... OK, I guess, but definitely not great. Sitting here and worrying about landing let's say a handful of 4-star kids makes little sense b/c even in our glory years, it was the class as a whole that determined how we did.

4. Early commits and/or kids with other good offers are every bit as important (for us) as star rankings. If you trust the staff, which I would suggest we should (and really I'm not sure Shafer/GRob/Marrone were bad in this regard either), they know what they're looking for. If they see a kid and like him enough to offer early and then he commits -- it's probably a good sign. If a kid commits and has *fill in the blank* stars, it's probably fine if he has some other really solid offers. Sometimes kids inflate their offer lists, I think, but regardless if we accept that they are being offered at other good football programs, and they're committing to us in the summer or early fall, that's a good thing.

5. Recruiting isn't always about landing your top priority from the state's big football factory high school. That's cool but sometimes it's about turning over rocks and finding Jay Bromley or Mike Williams (preferably without the baggage) or Eric Dungey.

So anyway, the bottom line is this: We need good players. Stars are fine and I think anyone would be fired up if we pick up a 5-star or start landing a bunch of 4-stars. But 'recruiting', IMO, is something of a misnomer. It's important to get good, projectable talent, but the key is having a good system, having a focused, effective S&C program, keeping the kids on campus once they get there so they can develop, teaching good technique ... all that stuff is equally as important.

The folks pining away for 4- and 5-star kids are missing the point, IMO.

Sure, but if kids see highly rated kids committing, they also want to be a part of that. They look at rankings just as much as we do. Just look at Van Dyke, already recruiting hard for a 5 star TE for Miami. The rankings overall may not be great, but a good number of times they do get it right. To take the next step we need to be in the mix for them.

 

[billsin01]

Sure, but if kids see highly rated kids committing, they also want to be a part of that. They look at rankings just as much as we do. Just look at Van Dyke, already recruiting hard for a 5 star TE for Miami. The rankings overall may not be great, but a good number of times they do get it right. To take the next step we need to be in the mix for them.

To be fair, Miami is also signing a 5-star TE in part b/c they are Miami. That's also part of the reason they got the commitment from Van Dyke in the first place.

I'm with you to an extent -- signing highly rated kids is a good thing and hopefully something we see more of going forward.

But, and I doubt we'll see eye-to-eye on this, I don't actually think rankings are that accurate. I don't see how they possibly could be. They are nowhere near as uniform as baseball where each club has a gaggle of scouts all over the country independently using the same rating scale (20-80) and even then it's still largely a numbers game. The red sox drafted mookie betts in the 5th round. 24 teams passed on Mike Trout who is basically a modern version of mickey mantle. Jacob DeGrom was drafted in the 9th round and even when he was in the system was clearly rated behind Matt Harvey, Zach Wheeler and Noah Syndegaard.

In football, you basically have young kids who like football and want to be in the media ranking an entire nation's worth of high school football players playing varying levels of competition with no definitive rating system. There is absolutely no way you are getting anything resembling a scientific ranking of 3,000 kids or whatever every year. And that's not even taking into consideration things like character (how hard a kid will work) or S&C and development moving forward.

Look at the list of 4-star (and two 5-star) kids we've signed according to r*****s:

1. 2014 -- KJ Williams (never made it)
2. 2010 -- Marquis Spruill (really good player)
3. 2008 -- Romale Tucker (don't think he ever really made it but either way did nothing)
   -- Averin Collier (never did much)
   -- Marcus Sales (solid but off-field stuff and work ethic were issues)
   -- Mikhail Marinovic (OK, but nothing great)
4. 2007 -- Jermaine Pierce (injury, never did anything)
5. 2006 -- Adam Rosner (started six games in 5 years
   -- Andrey Baskin (still hoping he shows up some day)
6. 2005 -- Lavar Lobdell (nothing)
7. 2003 -- Larry McClain (nothing)
8. 2002 -- Damien Rhodes (nice career, good player, not necessarily exceptional)
9. 2001 -- Cecil Howard, a 5-star (P never got up after falling out of his chair)
10. 2000 -- Johnny Morant, 5-star (good senior year, nothing for three years, no nfl career to speak of)
    -- Diamond Ferri -- good career, legendary performance vs. BC

So the takeaways, as far as I'm concerned, are these:

• We've never, in this century anyway, signed a class that included as much as a handful of 4/5-star kids. The closest we ever came was 2008, which clearly goes down as an outlier when the most we had outside of that was two such players and there were eight or so season when we signed none.
• When we have signed those kids, the results have been largely underwhelming. Even if you give Ferri, Morant, Rhodes, Sales and Spruill credit as productive and at times very good players, they are nowhere near our best players from this era -- as underwhelming as it has been overall. Those honors go to kids like Art and Chandler Jones, Justin Pugh, Dungey and Ryan Nassib, Anthony Smith ...
• Even if we start signing a handful or 7 or 8 of those kids, we still need to kill it with the 2/3-star kids we're signing b/c you need that depth.

So, I don't know, I guess you could counter this by saying we recruited better during the 90s but even then we never really sniffed the top 25 outside of, if i recall correctly, 1998 (the year with Mo Minter, Jackson and and Cooper -- the three WRs) and that was the year that our decline actually started and that class was wholly underwhelming.

I just think, at the end of the day, this is a sport that is not set up for us to be animals in recruiting unless we build something extremely unique. Dino seems like he's starting to do that but I think we'll need to win consistently for a while before we start pulling those difference-makers by the handful. Even then I'm not sure.

 

[orangepassion]

I don't believe anyone is expecting a ton of 4 and 5 stars. Just a group where most of the guys have good P5 offer lists.

 

[JackBauer44]

To be fair, Miami is also signing a 5-star TE in part b/c they are Miami. That's also part of the reason they got the commitment from Van Dyke in the first place.

I'm with you to an extent -- signing highly rated kids is a good thing and hopefully something we see more of going forward.

But, and I doubt we'll see eye-to-eye on this, I don't actually think rankings are that accurate. I don't see how they possibly could be. They are nowhere near as uniform as baseball where each club has a gaggle of scouts all over the country independently using the same rating scale (20-80) and even then it's still largely a numbers game. The red sox drafted mookie betts in the 5th round. 24 teams passed on Mike Trout who is basically a modern version of mickey mantle. Jacob DeGrom was drafted in the 9th round and even when he was in the system was clearly rated behind Matt Harvey, Zach Wheeler and Noah Syndegaard.

In football, you basically have young kids who like football and want to be in the media ranking an entire nation's worth of high school football players playing varying levels of competition with no definitive rating system. There is absolutely no way you are getting anything resembling a scientific ranking of 3,000 kids or whatever every year. And that's not even taking into consideration things like character (how hard a kid will work) or S&C and development moving forward.

Look at the list of 4-star (and two 5-star) kids we've signed according to r*****s:

1. 2014 -- KJ Williams (never made it)
2. 2010 -- Marquis Spruill (really good player)
3. 2008 -- Romale Tucker (don't think he ever really made it but either way did nothing)
   -- Averin Collier (never did much)
   -- Marcus Sales (solid but off-field stuff and work ethic were issues)
   -- Mikhail Marinovic (OK, but nothing great)
4. 2007 -- Jermaine Pierce (injury, never did anything)
5. 2006 -- Adam Rosner (started six games in 5 years
   -- Andrey Baskin (still hoping he shows up some day)
6. 2005 -- Lavar Lobdell (nothing)
7. 2003 -- Larry McClain (nothing)
8. 2002 -- Damien Rhodes (nice career, good player, not necessarily exceptional)
9. 2001 -- Cecil Howard, a 5-star (P never got up after falling out of his chair)
10. 2000 -- Johnny Morant, 5-star (good senior year, nothing for three years, no nfl career to speak of)
    -- Diamond Ferri -- good career, legendary performance vs. BC

So the takeaways, as far as I'm concerned, are these:

• We've never, in this century anyway, signed a class that included as much as a handful of 4/5-star kids. The closest we ever came was 2008, which clearly goes down as an outlier when the most we had outside of that was two such players and there were eight or so season when we signed none.
• When we have signed those kids, the results have been largely underwhelming. Even if you give Ferri, Morant, Rhodes, Sales and Spruill credit as productive and at times very good players, they are nowhere near our best players from this era -- as underwhelming as it has been overall. Those honors go to kids like Art and Chandler Jones, Justin Pugh, Dungey and Ryan Nassib, Anthony Smith ...
• Even if we start signing a handful or 7 or 8 of those kids, we still need to kill it with the 2/3-star kids we're signing b/c you need that depth.

So, I don't know, I guess you could counter this by saying we recruited better during the 90s but even then we never really sniffed the top 25 outside of, if i recall correctly, 1998 (the year with Mo Minter, Jackson and and Cooper -- the three WRs) and that was the year that our decline actually started and that class was wholly underwhelming.

I just think, at the end of the day, this is a sport that is not set up for us to be animals in recruiting unless we build something extremely unique. Dino seems like he's starting to do that but I think we'll need to win consistently for a while before we start pulling those difference-makers by the handful. Even then I'm not sure.

Adam Rosner was the most over-rated 4 star ever to be named. I'll take it to my grave. Back when I was a 6'3 320 pound nose guard, I blew him TFU at the Syracuse camp in front of Deleone. They made him do it again and he leaned so hard I swam right over him easily. They ripped him hard. I still can't stand that he got to play D1 football and I didn't. Yes I'm still bitter. I'll blame it on my ACL.

 

[perdurabo]

I'll blame it on my ACL.

Should have went to ACLU.

 

[skurey]

I don't believe anyone is expecting a ton of 4 and 5 stars. Just a group where most of the guys have good P5 offer lists.

This is where I'm at. Seems like the last half of our 2019 class had lots of solid P5 offers and people were/are excited for them.

So far 2020 is more Rutgers, Tulane, Northern Illinois, Army type of offers.

But obviously there's tons of time left and I trust our staff to coach up all of our recruits no matter how good they were in high school.

 

[Louie and Bouie]

To be fair, Miami is also signing a 5-star TE in part b/c they are Miami. That's also part of the reason they got the commitment from Van Dyke in the first place.

I'm with you to an extent -- signing highly rated kids is a good thing and hopefully something we see more of going forward.

But, and I doubt we'll see eye-to-eye on this, I don't actually think rankings are that accurate. I don't see how they possibly could be. They are nowhere near as uniform as baseball where each club has a gaggle of scouts all over the country independently using the same rating scale (20-80) and even then it's still largely a numbers game. The red sox drafted mookie betts in the 5th round. 24 teams passed on Mike Trout who is basically a modern version of mickey mantle. Jacob DeGrom was drafted in the 9th round and even when he was in the system was clearly rated behind Matt Harvey, Zach Wheeler and Noah Syndegaard.

In football, you basically have young kids who like football and want to be in the media ranking an entire nation's worth of high school football players playing varying levels of competition with no definitive rating system. There is absolutely no way you are getting anything resembling a scientific ranking of 3,000 kids or whatever every year. And that's not even taking into consideration things like character (how hard a kid will work) or S&C and development moving forward.

Look at the list of 4-star (and two 5-star) kids we've signed according to r*****s:

1. 2014 -- KJ Williams (never made it)
2. 2010 -- Marquis Spruill (really good player)
3. 2008 -- Romale Tucker (don't think he ever really made it but either way did nothing)
   -- Averin Collier (never did much)
   -- Marcus Sales (solid but off-field stuff and work ethic were issues)
   -- Mikhail Marinovic (OK, but nothing great)
4. 2007 -- Jermaine Pierce (injury, never did anything)
5. 2006 -- Adam Rosner (started six games in 5 years
   -- Andrey Baskin (still hoping he shows up some day)
6. 2005 -- Lavar Lobdell (nothing)
7. 2003 -- Larry McClain (nothing)
8. 2002 -- Damien Rhodes (nice career, good player, not necessarily exceptional)
9. 2001 -- Cecil Howard, a 5-star (P never got up after falling out of his chair)
10. 2000 -- Johnny Morant, 5-star (good senior year, nothing for three years, no nfl career to speak of)
    -- Diamond Ferri -- good career, legendary performance vs. BC

So the takeaways, as far as I'm concerned, are these:

• We've never, in this century anyway, signed a class that included as much as a handful of 4/5-star kids. The closest we ever came was 2008, which clearly goes down as an outlier when the most we had outside of that was two such players and there were eight or so season when we signed none.
• When we have signed those kids, the results have been largely underwhelming. Even if you give Ferri, Morant, Rhodes, Sales and Spruill credit as productive and at times very good players, they are nowhere near our best players from this era -- as underwhelming as it has been overall. Those honors go to kids like Art and Chandler Jones, Justin Pugh, Dungey and Ryan Nassib, Anthony Smith ...
• Even if we start signing a handful or 7 or 8 of those kids, we still need to kill it with the 2/3-star kids we're signing b/c you need that depth.

So, I don't know, I guess you could counter this by saying we recruited better during the 90s but even then we never really sniffed the top 25 outside of, if i recall correctly, 1998 (the year with Mo Minter, Jackson and and Cooper -- the three WRs) and that was the year that our decline actually started and that class was wholly underwhelming.

I just think, at the end of the day, this is a sport that is not set up for us to be animals in recruiting unless we build something extremely unique. Dino seems like he's starting to do that but I think we'll need to win consistently for a while before we start pulling those difference-makers by the handful. Even then I'm not sure.

Interesting observation on the 5 star 4 star recruits. From the other site you would add in Wayne Morgan, Ron Thompson, Trill Williams and Tommy Devito.

Overall, recruiting at our level is hit or miss. I do believe you have a better chance to hit on the 4 stars than 3 stars on a percentage basis but certainly agree that our on field performance will be based on 90+% of our roster which are 3 stars and we need to hit on a good percentage to win. That's where we have to trust the coaches. No other choice.

 

[kcsu]

Its all about offers. Also i believe we are missing Boller. He was exceptional at identifying talent.
This class is still a work in progress. Positions of need are both lines. We are in good shape at WR, DB, Safety, LB, RB,
Need a QB and it looks like we are deciding between to B list guys. Need DTs and need OTs.

 

[CuseLegacy]

This is where I'm at. Seems like the last half of our 2019 class had lots of solid P5 offers and people were/are excited for them.

So far 2020 is more Rutgers, Tulane, Northern Illinois, Army type of offers.

But obviously there's tons of time left and I trust our staff to coach up all of our recruits no matter how good they were in high school.

Maybe you need to review this thread.

Class of 2020 - Recruits and Offers

Here is what we have so far (taken from Rivals, 2-4-7 and ESPN). We can update this list as the class progresses. Any recruits with names in Blue are rated a 4 star recruit or higher by one of the major services. Total 2020 Commits (23) January 2020 Enrollees (6) Latarie Kinsler - DE...

syracusefan.com

 

[SUFan44]

This is where I'm at. Seems like the last half of our 2019 class had lots of solid P5 offers and people were/are excited for them.

So far 2020 is more Rutgers, Tulane, Northern Illinois, Army type of offers.

But obviously there's tons of time left and I trust our staff to coach up all of our recruits no matter how good they were in high school.

Yeah that’s simply not true. There’s only one kid who doesn’t have another P5 offer - and that’s the kicker. Sure, there are a lot that don’t have many but those that have Wisconsin offers or Pitt offers... those are good enough for me.

 

[upperdeck]

Kids get rated by services by a set of things a/b/c whatever they are mostly speed/size/stats etc. Its the same for every kid across the country.

Coaches rate kids by x/y/z. They may not be the same thing from team to team since they need kids to fit their system. Sure the coaches would love the biggest/fastest/most athletic kids. But the kids need to have what the coaches want to run in this system and sometimes the 4-5 star kids dont have that too but a 3 star you can build up will.. The NFL is built on kids playing at small colleges and having treat careers and college is he same.

one thing is clear though.. The coaches review every kid they actually take pretty closely. The services do not review every kid nearly as closely as they dont have the time to study 1000x of kids and once you get past the top 2-300 that are going where the majority of the people who use their sites care about it drops off pretty fast as to how well reviewed the kids are.

If we were getting a top 25 class i would feel pretty good about whats coming in. Since we wont, then we need to trust the staff is getting what they can to keep getting better and really its going to take 2-3 yrs of 8-9-10 wins to turn around a decade plus of issues.

honestly when we say we are looking at our B level kids we have no clue what that means. The coaches have to pick and choose someplace who they start to target.

maybe we have 4 QBs on our board. two 5 star and two 3 star and we go hard after the 5 stars and lose, that doesnt mean the coaches think the 3 stars are way less value. maybe they are all equal but the 5 stars have more speed/etc so they go after the upside guys first. It could also mean the coaches like the 3 star guys for everything else and in a system like ours that matters alot.

 

[skurey]

Yeah that’s simply not true. There’s only one kid who doesn’t have another P5 offer - and that’s the kicker. Sure, there are a lot that don’t have many but those that have Wisconsin offers or Pitt offers... those are good enough for me.

I never said they didn't have P5 offers. Thank you.

 

[kcsu]

Dino is recruiting quality individuals. Not only are they talented athletically but they seem to be really solid kids. Being offered by top programs is always a sign of talent. In my opinion its also a great sign when our camp committed recruits that might not have the star power are being offered by the service academies and Ivy league schools. Smart kids, well grounded, with the size,speed ,attitude ,and intelligence to improve are how you build a program like Syracuse.
I dont care about our recruiting rankings as long as Dino and his staff are filling half of each class with kids offered as a result of close, in person staff evaluations i know we are in good shape.
Dino knows exactly the type of person he wants to build his program with and by the looks of it he is landing them.

 

[dasher]

Dino is recruiting quality individuals. Not only are they talented athletically but they seem to be really solid kids. Being offered by top programs is always a sign of talent. In my opinion its also a great sign when our camp committed recruits that might not have the star power are being offered by the service academies and Ivy league schools. Smart kids, well grounded, with the size,speed ,attitude ,and intelligence to improve are how you build a program like Syracuse.
I dont care about our recruiting rankings as long as Dino and his staff are filling half of each class with kids offered as a result of close, in person staff evaluations i know we are in good shape.
Dino knows exactly the type of person he wants to build his program with and by the looks of it he is landing them.

Remember what Herb brooks said when putting together the 1980 pics team. I want the right players. Not the best players.

 

[SUskibum]

Dino is recruiting quality individuals. Not only are they talented athletically but they seem to be really solid kids. Being offered by top programs is always a sign of talent. In my opinion its also a great sign when our camp committed recruits that might not have the star power are being offered by the service academies and Ivy league schools. Smart kids, well grounded, with the size,speed ,attitude ,and intelligence to improve are how you build a program like Syracuse.
I dont care about our recruiting rankings as long as Dino and his staff are filling half of each class with kids offered as a result of close, in person staff evaluations i know we are in good shape.
Dino knows exactly the type of person he wants to build his program with and by the looks of it he is landing them.

I couldn’t agree more

I also think your point about in person evaluation (physical, mental & social) is the reason why we seem to be slow starters every year with commitment numbers.

I think DFB and crew tells these kids to pump the brakes until they can be fully vetted (I think this strategy actually benefits both sides which I hope Mahar is finding out now)

 

[P Vasiloff]

Coach Babers and his staff for lack of a better term, recruit by committee. Each recruit is examined by several coaches and they all have to agree before the offer comes. I trust this staff's eye for talent. Go Orange!!!!!!!

 

[supp]

Remember what Herb brooks said when putting together the 1980 pics team. I want the right players. Not the best players.

Problem with that analogy is that Brooks got to select his gus. A little more complicated here. Babers has also offered and recruited a whole bunch of the "best" players. They've just chosen to go elsewhere.

 

[Sudano]

Problem with that analogy is that Brooks got to select his gus. A little more complicated here. Babers has also offered and recruited a whole bunch of the "best" players. They've just chosen to go elsewhere.

Alot of rationalization going on: Could very well be:
Babers has also offered and recruited a whole bunch of the "right" players. They've just chosen to go elsewhere.

 

[RandomGuy]

Coach Babers and his staff for lack of a better term, recruit by committee. Each recruit is examined by several coaches and they all have to agree before the offer comes. I trust this staff's eye for talent. Go Orange!!

Thats pretty normal. From what i read, it takes a minumum of 4 coaches to sign off on a kid.

 

[FrancoPizza]

To be fair, Miami is also signing a 5-star TE in part b/c they are Miami. That's also part of the reason they got the commitment from Van Dyke in the first place.

I'm with you to an extent -- signing highly rated kids is a good thing and hopefully something we see more of going forward.

But, and I doubt we'll see eye-to-eye on this, I don't actually think rankings are that accurate. I don't see how they possibly could be. They are nowhere near as uniform as baseball where each club has a gaggle of scouts all over the country independently using the same rating scale (20-80) and even then it's still largely a numbers game. The red sox drafted mookie betts in the 5th round. 24 teams passed on Mike Trout who is basically a modern version of mickey mantle. Jacob DeGrom was drafted in the 9th round and even when he was in the system was clearly rated behind Matt Harvey, Zach Wheeler and Noah Syndegaard.

In football, you basically have young kids who like football and want to be in the media ranking an entire nation's worth of high school football players playing varying levels of competition with no definitive rating system. There is absolutely no way you are getting anything resembling a scientific ranking of 3,000 kids or whatever every year. And that's not even taking into consideration things like character (how hard a kid will work) or S&C and development moving forward.

Look at the list of 4-star (and two 5-star) kids we've signed according to r*****s:

1. 2014 -- KJ Williams (never made it)
2. 2010 -- Marquis Spruill (really good player)
3. 2008 -- Romale Tucker (don't think he ever really made it but either way did nothing)
   -- Averin Collier (never did much)
   -- Marcus Sales (solid but off-field stuff and work ethic were issues)
   -- Mikhail Marinovic (OK, but nothing great)
4. 2007 -- Jermaine Pierce (injury, never did anything)
5. 2006 -- Adam Rosner (started six games in 5 years
   -- Andrey Baskin (still hoping he shows up some day)
6. 2005 -- Lavar Lobdell (nothing)
7. 2003 -- Larry McClain (nothing)
8. 2002 -- Damien Rhodes (nice career, good player, not necessarily exceptional)
9. 2001 -- Cecil Howard, a 5-star (P never got up after falling out of his chair)
10. 2000 -- Johnny Morant, 5-star (good senior year, nothing for three years, no nfl career to speak of)
    -- Diamond Ferri -- good career, legendary performance vs. BC

So the takeaways, as far as I'm concerned, are these:

• We've never, in this century anyway, signed a class that included as much as a handful of 4/5-star kids. The closest we ever came was 2008, which clearly goes down as an outlier when the most we had outside of that was two such players and there were eight or so season when we signed none.
• When we have signed those kids, the results have been largely underwhelming. Even if you give Ferri, Morant, Rhodes, Sales and Spruill credit as productive and at times very good players, they are nowhere near our best players from this era -- as underwhelming as it has been overall. Those honors go to kids like Art and Chandler Jones, Justin Pugh, Dungey and Ryan Nassib, Anthony Smith ...
• Even if we start signing a handful or 7 or 8 of those kids, we still need to kill it with the 2/3-star kids we're signing b/c you need that depth.

So, I don't know, I guess you could counter this by saying we recruited better during the 90s but even then we never really sniffed the top 25 outside of, if i recall correctly, 1998 (the year with Mo Minter, Jackson and and Cooper -- the three WRs) and that was the year that our decline actually started and that class was wholly underwhelming.

I just think, at the end of the day, this is a sport that is not set up for us to be animals in recruiting unless we build something extremely unique. Dino seems like he's starting to do that but I think we'll need to win consistently for a while before we start pulling those difference-makers by the handful. Even then I'm not sure.

Just for accuracy’s sake- pretty sure it was Deleone that fell out of the chair. And I thought it was for joe fields. Either way, Howard and fields were 3 stars.

 

[billsin01]

Just for accuracy’s sake- pretty sure it was Deleone that fell out of the chair. And I thought it was for joe fields. Either way, Howard and fields were 3 stars.

Pretty sure it was howard but you might be right, could have been deleone. But Howard, at least on some sites, was definitely 5-star. 2 4 7 has him as the 23rd best player overall with a .992 rating out of 10. Oops.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Howard, at least on some sites, was definitely 5-star. 2 4 7 has him as the 23rd best player overall with a .992 rating out of 10. Oops.

you gotta be shisting me

 

[RF2044]

you gotta be shisting me

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. Howard was a universal 5-star recruit, he was supposed to be it. are you disputing the fact that he was an elite recruit, regardless of how his career turned out?

 

[billsin01]

Alot of rationalization going on: Could very well be:
Babers has also offered and recruited a whole bunch of the "right" players. They've just chosen to go elsewhere.

They will continue to do so. We hopefully get more in the future (even as a guy who scoffs at the star system, I'm happy to grab all the 4/5 star guys we can get). But the vast majority of every class we sign for the foreseeable future is going to be these 3-star kids. The key is getting the right ones. Are we doing that? I don't know. I'm inclined to trust what's going on with this staff, but whether they are or not, that will be the key. Along with getting a bit creative -- a key 5th-year here and there, a strong presence in the transfer market, maybe the odd juco or two ... Never say never, but we are really going to have to establish something really special to start turning heads of big name dudes who have offers from the big boys.

 

[General Joe]

They will continue to do so. We hopefully get more in the future (even as a guy who scoffs at the star system, I'm happy to grab all the 4/5 star guys we can get). But the vast majority of every class we sign for the foreseeable future is going to be these 3-star kids. The key is getting the right ones. Are we doing that? I don't know. I'm inclined to trust what's going on with this staff, but whether they are or not, that will be the key. Along with getting a bit creative -- a key 5th-year here and there, a strong presence in the transfer market, maybe the odd juco or two ... Never say never, but we are really going to have to establish something really special to start turning heads of big name dudes who have offers from the big boys.

I really like your post and agree with you. The question i have always had is why is it every other team in the ACC can get 4 star and higher rated players and classes than Syracuse? To make this sentiment PC for this page I will say the other ACC teams are consistently getting players with much much much better offers. Even after our upset of Clemson 2 years ago and great year last year the likes of NC, NCST, Louisville, GT and even UVA and Duke are getting better players by every single metric including and perhaps MOST IMPORTANTLY QUALITY OFFERS!!!! It seems our coaches are still getting commits from MAC type players, while the other ACC teams are fighting for Power 5 players.
Just look at the offers for our recruits. Below

Robert Hanna - S (Verbal)
Miami, FL - Palmetto HS
2-4-7 Rating at Commit Date *** 6/22/19; Current Rating 6/22/19 ***
Major (10)- SU, BC, Louisville, Miami, Maryland, North Carolina, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Wake Forest, Washington St.
Mid Major (8) - Bowling Green, FAU, Liberty, Southern Miss, UAB, UCF, USF, Western Kentucky
Class of 2020 - S Robert Hanna (FL) COMMITTED TO SYRACUSE (6/22/19)

Charles Bell IV - DB (Verbal)
Gaithersburg, MD - Quince Orchard HS
2-4-7 Rating at Commit Date *** 6/22/19; Current Rating 6/22/19 ***
Major (6)- SU, BC, Maryland, Nebraska, Pittsburgh, Virginia Tech
Mid Major (5) - East Carolina, Liberty, Temple, Toledo, UMASS
Class of 2020 - DB Charles Bell IV (MD) COMMITTED TO SYRACUSE (6/22/19)

Justin Barron - ATH (Verbal)
Suffield, CT - Suffield Academy
2-4-7 Rating at Commit Date *** 6/16/19; Current Rating 6/16/19 ***
Major (5)- SU, BC, Pitt, Rutgers, Virgina
Mid Major (6) - Air Force, FIU, Navy, Southern Miss, UCONN
Class of 2020 - ATH Justin Barron (CT) COMMITTED TO SYRACUSE (6/16/19)

Leon Lowery - DE (Verbal)
North Brunswick, NJ - North Brunswick HS
2-4-7 Rating at Commit Date *** 6/16/19; Current Rating 6/16/19 ***
Major (4)- SU, Indiana, Rutgers, Virginia Tech
Mid Major (4) - Buffalo, Central Michigan, Temple, UMASS
Class of 2020 - DE Leon Lowery (NJ) COMMITTED TO SYRACUSE (6/16/19)

Sean Tucker - RB (Verbal)
Towson, MD - Calvert Hall College HS
2-4-7 Rating at Commit Date N/A 4/13/19; Current Rating 6/16/19 ***
Major (3)- SU, Rutgers, Wisconsin
Mid Major (2) - Air Force, Kent St.
Class of 2020 - RB Sean Tucker (MD) COMMITTED TO SYRACUSE (4/13/19)

Stefon Thompson - LB (Verbal)
Charlotte, NC - Zebulon B. Vance HS
2-4-7 Rating at Commit Date *** 6/21/19; Current Rating 6/21/19 ***
Major (2)- SU, Wisconsin
Mid Major (13) - App. St., Akron, Charlotte, Coastal Carolina, Colorado St., Georgia Southern, Georgia St., Liberty, Marshall, Ohio, Southern Miss, UMASS, Western Kentucky
Class of 2020 - LB Stefon Thompson (NC) COMMITTED TO SYRACUSE (6/21/19)

Garth Barclay - OT (Verbal)
York, PA - York Suburban
2-4-7 Rating at Commit Date *** 6/19/19; Current Rating 6/19/19 ***
Major (2)- SU, Virginia
Mid Major (8) - Bowling Green, Buffalo, Central Michigan, ODU, Temple, Toledo, UCONN, UMASS
Class of 2020 - OL Garth Barclay (PA) COMMITTED TO SYRACUSE (6/19/19)

Marlowe Wax - RB (Verbal)
Baltimore, MD - Mount Saint Joseph HS
2-4-7 Rating at Commit Date *** 4/14/19; Current Rating 6/16/19 ***
Major (2)- SU, Pittsburgh
Mid Major (5) - East Carolina, Kent St, Marshall, Temple, Toledo
Class of 2020 - RB Marlowe Wax Jr (MD) COMMITTED TO SYRACUSE (4/14/19)

Kevin Lemieux - DE (Verbal)
Byfield, MA - The Governor's Academy
2-4-7 Rating at Commit Date *** 3/24/19; Current Rating 6/16/19 ***
Major (2)- SU, Rutgers
Mid Major (2) - Army, UMASS
Class of 2020 - DE Kevin Lemieux (MA) COMMITTED TO SYRACUSE (3/24/19)



James Williams - K/P (Verbal)
Athens, GA - Athens Academy
2-4-7 Rating at Commit Date NR 6/19/19; Current Rating 6/19/19 NR
Major (1)- SU
Mid Major (3) - Air Force, Army, Hawaii
Class of 2020 - P/K James Williams (GA) COMMITTED TO SYRACUSE (6/19/19)

Syracuse finished last season at #15 in the country. We have just 1 recruit that the 14 teams that finished ahead of us even offered. 1 kid and thats Robert Hanna and the 1 offer was from Wash ST. And we cant say HCDB doesnt want the higher ranked players because they are offering the highest amount of recruits in the country. Outside of Hanna,Barron and Bell we beat out a bunch of MAC or lower teams and or 1 or 2 low power 5 teams for these recruits. We have a bunch of recruits with 4 or less power conference offers and most of those are from Power 5 teams with losing records. In fact if you look at all of Babers classes its been pretty similiar. 3-4Power 5 type recruits and the rest MAC/AAC type recruits. I guess people will say "hidden gems" found by Babers. Babers has a great offensive scheme that I hope can carry us but WE HAVE to step it up in recruiting. I am not on here to bash or defend HCDB but simply to look at what we have. And by any metric its not top 25 worthy. The fact that NC NCST GT UVA DUKE PITT all have better recruits BASED ON OFFERS is a big red flag. But HCDB still has time to pull in 4 or 5 ACC type recruits so lets hope they get it done.