Save The Dome, Part 1: Raise the Roof

[storange]

Ive been to many stadiums (Pro and College ) as far as actually seeing what goes on with out the use of replay boards the Dome is the best by far. My seasons for 125.00 are absolutely great seats. People just don't know how good we have it. Try sitting in row 95 in State College being hounded by bees and actually being a long distance call from the field. It sucked

 

[xc84]

Ive been to many stadiums (Pro and College ) as far as actually seeing what goes on with out the use of replay boards the Dome is the best by far. My seasons for 125.00 are absolutely great seats. People just don't know how good we have it. Try sitting in row 95 in State College being hounded by bees and actually being a long distance call from the field. It sucked

I agree. Not a bad seat in the house for football. Go to a Michigan game and your seats might be at the Illinois border.

 

[Millhouse]

Fixed roof is more like $250M ...make it retractable and you add another $80M. Lots of case studies on this by e.g. Minnesota, British Colombia.

how much are the air supported roofs we have now? i understand they need to be replaced more often.

not worth 80M to have a retractable roof. easy to fall prey to thinking "well, 80M is less than a third of 250M." but it's still 80M

jackson state wanted to build a clone of the dome with other people's money (they're crazy too). even with updated codes, they expected the whole thing to only cost 200M - so how much can that roof cost?

http://www.msnewsnow.com/story/21417995/jsu-unveils-plan-for-domed-stadium

http://www.jacksonfreepress.com/news/2013/feb/22/jsu-announces-200-million-dome/

 

[cusefan88]

I think that the problem with a fixed roof might be the load factor on the existing structure.

The concrete issue is definitely a big problem with any renovation. Can't widen the concourse either. I wonder if it's possible to build out an atrium in the big space between the west end and Irving Ave. It's a pretty large area.

 

[sutomcat]

Sounds like an even larger undertaking than that of BC place. More pitch = larger roof = more supports, etc. Your argument, if accurate, is convincing me that a new fixed fabric roof would be a large amount of money... maybe more than necessary If that is the case, just build from scratch and use a proven design that would work rather than trying to retro-fit onto an existing structure with no precedent. I think that might be a better way to spend Millhouse's tax dollars but I would need to do a thorough study of the financials before making my final decision on that.

Agreed, there are many factors in play and the issues SU is dealing with are complex.

IMHO, the biggest issue with the Dome today is the roof and the risk that something will happen to it someday that will shut it down for an extended period.

Snow is the enemy of the air supported dome structures. It is a minor miracle that the Carrier Dome, located in the city with the heaviest annual snowfall of any major city in the country, has not had a major incident to date.

Whatever SU elects to do, the most important thing, IMHO, is to mitigate the risk that the roof gets ripped in a major snowstorm by replacing it with something more stable and able to handle major snow accumulations.

I am not an engineer but my gut feeling is that any fabric based solution is going to have issues with major snow storms Syracuse is regularly subject to. It would be awful to spend $100-$200 million renovating the Dome and still have to hold your breath every time a major snow warning is issued.

Anyway, this ETFE sounds like it would be close to ideal. It is light, relatively cheap, if installed at an angle should be 'snow friendly' and it lets in light, which to me is a good compromise...we get some of the benefits of a retractable roof but less cost both up front and long term. It would be interesting to know how feasible it is to install this on a stadium with walls only designed to hold up a fabric roof. I hope SU looks at it as an option.

 

[xc84]

how much are the air supported roofs we have now? i understand they need to be replaced more often.

not worth 80M to have a retractable roof. easy to fall prey to thinking "well, 80M is less than a third of 250M." but it's still 80M

jackson state wanted to build a clone of the dome with other people's money (they're crazy too). even with updated codes, they expected the whole thing to only cost 200M - so how much can that roof cost?

http://www.msnewsnow.com/story/21417995/jsu-unveils-plan-for-domed-stadium

http://www.jacksonfreepress.com/news/2013/feb/22/jsu-announces-200-million-dome/

Looks like the Carrier Dome except for the roof. Is it air supported?

 

[Millhouse]

Looks like the Carrier Dome except for the roof. Is it air supported?

the guy who built the dome did this design (george heery)

not sure what type of roof it is (maybe it's still air supported but with odd pleats for lack of a better word, i don't know) but the whole thing costs less than some of the roof only options thrown around here

i get that it's louisiana weather too so it's just a comparison

 

[xc84]

the guy who built the dome did this design (george heery)

not sure what type of roof it is (maybe it's still air supported but with odd pleats for lack of a better word, i don't know) but the whole thing costs less than some of the roof only options thrown around here

i get that it's louisiana weather too so it's just a comparison

Yes, the cost of building from scratch can sometimes be more cost-effective than trying to retro the existing structure. That's what I have been saying.

 

[CuseLegacy]

how much are the air supported roofs we have now? i understand they need to be replaced more often.

not worth 80M to have a retractable roof. easy to fall prey to thinking "well, 80M is less than a third of 250M." but it's still 80M

jackson state wanted to build a clone of the dome with other people's money (they're crazy too). even with updated codes, they expected the whole thing to only cost 200M - so how much can that roof cost?

http://www.msnewsnow.com/story/21417995/jsu-unveils-plan-for-domed-stadium

http://www.jacksonfreepress.com/news/2013/feb/22/jsu-announces-200-million-dome/

There are some better pictures of the JSU facility here. It even states that it is based on the design of the Carrier Dome.

http://www.jsums.edu/dome/

 

[Millhouse]

Yes, the cost of building from scratch can sometimes be more cost-effective than trying to retro the existing structure. That's what I have been saying.

do anyone have an unbiased estimate of the additional risk an air supported roof poses over a fixed roof?

i'm wary of calling it a minor miracle that 30 some years of winter hasn't blown off the roof. maybe it's not as big a risk. it's pretty easy to justify building anything if one assumes the a high likelihood of a tear and a high cost of a tear. i don't remember many people talking about that risk through the years, i'm wary that it's just something people throw against the wall to see if it sticks now that the question of new vs existing has come up

fixed, air, new, retro - whatever they end up doing, i really want them to rule out retractable, 80M extra for that is nuts

 

[xc84]

do anyone have an unbiased estimate of the additional risk an air supported roof poses over a fixed roof?

i'm wary of calling it a minor miracle that 30 some years of winter hasn't blown off the roof. maybe it's not as big a risk. it's pretty easy to justify building anything if one assumes the a high likelihood of a tear and a high cost of a tear. i don't remember many people talking about that risk through the years, i'm wary that it's just something people throw against the wall to see if it sticks now that the question of new vs existing has come up

fixed, air, new, retro - whatever they end up doing, i really want them to rule out retractable, 80M extra for that is nuts

Look at Minnesota, University of Northern Iowa, and BC for air-supported fabric roof failure experiences. Each had major failures to the point where each replaced the roof system or the entire building. Sure, it's anectotal but those and the Carrier are all of the air supported stadium structures I am aware of now. Most have been demolished. So just taking those above, we have failure in 75%.

 

[sutomcat]

Yes, the cost of building from scratch can sometimes be more cost-effective than trying to retro the existing structure. That's what I have been saying.

It is a definite possibility. As newer technologies and materials become available, there are more options but this is a really tough engineering problem.

Regarding the cost to make a roof retractable, $80 million is too much.

This article says the cost to make a fixed roof retractable is between $25 and $40 million. This one says the same. This one says $25 - $50 million. And this one says less than $20 million.

$80 million might have been true years ago but the cost has dropped as more and more retractable roofs have been built.

Still, $20 million is significant, we know dollars are always going to be tight for a facility for SU and given where Syracuse is, with its snow issues and the anticipated lack of use of the facility in the summer months, I don't think a retractable roof makes sense. Especially if part of the roof can be made translucent.

 

[CousCuse]

I agree. Not a bad seat in the house for football. Go to a Michigan game and your seats might be at the Illinois border.

Michigan does not border Illinois . The U P does border Wisconsin.

 

[xc84]

Michigan does not border Illinois . The U P does border Wisconsin.

Exactly. That gives a good idea of how far away you might sit for a game at Michigan. Your seat could be in any one of three states!

 

[xc84]

It is a definite possibility. As newer technologies and materials become available, there are more options but this is a really tough engineering problem.

Regarding the cost to make a roof retractable, $80 million is too much.

This article says the cost to make a fixed roof retractable is between $25 and $40 million. This one says the same. This one says $25 - $50 million. And this one says less than $20 million.

$80 million might have been true years ago but the cost has dropped as more and more retractable roofs have been built.

Still, $20 million is significant, we know dollars are always going to be tight for a facility for SU and given where Syracuse is, with its snow issues and the anticipated lack of use of the facility in the summer months, I don't think a retractable roof makes sense. Especially if part of the roof can be made translucent.

Honestly, if only $20M, I'd love that option and I think they would be crazy not to do it. The summer argument is for today's dome...not for a stadium with a retractable roof and A/C. With no A/C and a translucent non-retractable roof, it's a greenhouse.

 

[shandeezy7]

do anyone have an unbiased estimate of the additional risk an air supported roof poses over a fixed roof?

i'm wary of calling it a minor miracle that 30 some years of winter hasn't blown off the roof. maybe it's not as big a risk. it's pretty easy to justify building anything if one assumes the a high likelihood of a tear and a high cost of a tear. i don't remember many people talking about that risk through the years, i'm wary that it's just something people throw against the wall to see if it sticks now that the question of new vs existing has come up

fixed, air, new, retro - whatever they end up doing, i really want them to rule out retractable, 80M extra for that is nuts

Never understood the fascination for retractable roofs in cold weather football stadiums. Is the number of times it gets used really worth the added cost and maintenance? It makes sense for baseball stadiums and for some of the football stadiums in warmer climates, but just seems like an unnecessary addition here.

As for the Dome roof being able to handle the weather - we've had some of the worst storms imaginable up here in both the winter (blizzard of '93) and the summer (Labor Day storm) and the thing has seemed to hold up pretty well, I'd say.

 

[xc84]

Never understood the fascination for retractable roofs in cold weather football stadiums. Is the number of times it gets used really worth the added cost and maintenance? It makes sense for baseball stadiums and for some of the football stadiums in warmer climates, but just seems like an unnecessary addition here.

As for the Dome roof being able to handle the weather - we've had some of the worst storms imaginable up here in both the winter (blizzard of '93) and the summer (Labor Day storm) and the thing has seemed to hold up pretty well, I'd say.

When we have blizzards, dome management is on high alert and heating the hell out of the dome to melt the snow. They have done a great job avoiding tears but only a matter of time before one happens.

I think the word "fascination" is not appropriate. I don't know of anyone who is "fascinated" by a retractable roof or would want one because they are fascinated by them. However, I can't help but think that in sunny days at the sweltering dome, it would be really nice to have the roof off not to mention the ability to use the dome more in hot summer weather. It's about the experience, not "fascination". I agree it is not "necessary" but that does not mean they would not make the games more enjoyable or the dome more useable.

 

[FAL]

There are some better pictures of the JSU facility here. It even states that it is based on the design of the Carrier Dome.

http://www.jsums.edu/dome/

I wouldn't mind a new Dome that looked like that.

 

[xc84]

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2010/12/manager_of_syracuses_carrier_d.html

Yeah, nothing the worry about:

It’s our worst nightmare,” Sala said of the Metrodome’s collapse under 2 feet of snow early Sunday morning. “Those guys are going through hell right now.”

In Minneapolis, workers were on the Metrodome’s roof for seven straight hours on Saturday. But on Saturday evening, high winds forced workers to come down off the roof around 6 p.m. The roof collapsed around 5 a.m. on Sunday.

“They did everything they should have done,” Sala said of the Metrodome officials.

The roof moves. It’s a living, breathing thing,” Sala said. “The bridge cables can twist, the Teflon can tear. It’s vulnerable. Now your fear is the wind. When the roof is down, the wind is your enemy. And now you have to melt the snow. All that water is coming into your facility. I guess water on field is better than a tear in your roof."

“This type of thing can happen in the blink of an eye,” Sala said. “I worry every day.”

Sala said what happened in Minnesota could just as easily happen in Syracuse. “I’ve been telling everybody at the university,” said Sala, “you’re as vulnerable as the next big snowstorm.”

What the hell does he know, anyway!?

 

[sutomcat]

do anyone have an unbiased estimate of the additional risk an air supported roof poses over a fixed roof?

i'm wary of calling it a minor miracle that 30 some years of winter hasn't blown off the roof. maybe it's not as big a risk. it's pretty easy to justify building anything if one assumes the a high likelihood of a tear and a high cost of a tear. i don't remember many people talking about that risk through the years, i'm wary that it's just something people throw against the wall to see if it sticks now that the question of new vs existing has come up

fixed, air, new, retro - whatever they end up doing, i really want them to rule out retractable, 80M extra for that is nuts

You are entitled to your opinion but given where the Carrier Dome is and the history of air supported domes, I think you are mistaken.

Facts:

The Carrier Dome has been forced to deflate due to severe snow storms 5 times since 1980. It has suffered one tear but the tear did not cause the Dome to collapse.

The MetroDome was significantly damaged 5 times in less than 22 years of operation. It collapsed as a result 4 times.

The University of Northern Iowa's Dome collapsed 'numerous times' during of 23 years of operation before it was replaced with a fixed roof. The first occurred 9 days after it opened.

The SilverDome suffered a catastrophic collapse twice in 31 years. Three if you consider life after it lost all its tenants. It is no longer in operation.

The BC Place Dome in Vancouver collapsed once in 29 years. It was replaced years ago.

The RCA Dome in Indianapolis was demolished a few years ago. As far as I can tell, it, along with the Carrier Dome, are the only US air supported domes that have not collapsed.

With the Metrodome deflated, the Carrier Dome is the last major air supported dome in North America.

Scientific American story on the demise of air supported domes

DO story about the Carrier Dome and the constant danger air supported domes face

 

[SU2NASA]

I agree. Not a bad seat in the house for football. Go to a Michigan game and your seats might be at the Illinois border.

Have you ever even been to a game in Ann Arbor? The seating bowl is very compact. Having sat in the last row at Michigan Stadium, it may not even be as far away as the furthest seating in the Dome.

 

[Millhouse]

You are entitled to your opinion but given where the Carrier Dome is and the history of air supported domes, I think you are mistaken.

Facts:

The Carrier Dome has been forced to deflate due to severe snow storms 5 times since 1980. It has suffered one tear but the tear did not cause the Dome to collapse.

The MetroDome was significantly damaged 5 times in less than 22 years of operation. It collapsed as a result 4 times.

The University of Northern Iowa's Dome collapsed 'numerous times' during of 23 years of operation before it was replaced with a fixed roof. The first occurred 9 days after it opened.

The SilverDome suffered a catastrophic collapse twice in 31 years. Three if you consider life after it lost all its tenants. It is no longer in operation.

The BC Place Dome in Vancouver collapsed once in 29 years. It was replaced years ago.

The RCA Dome in Indianapolis was demolished a few years ago. As far as I can tell, it, along with the Carrier Dome, are the only US air supported domes that have not collapsed.

With the Metrodome deflated, the Carrier Dome is the last major air supported dome in North America.

Scientific American story on the demise of air supported domes

DO story about the Carrier Dome and the constant danger air supported domes face

I know the dome has been forced to deflate at times. in 93 or 94 i had a great view of it from way up lawrinson.

Moving the goal posts there Tom. How much does a forced deflation cost?

 

[sutomcat]

I know the dome has been forced to deflate at times. in 93 or 94 i had a great view of it from way up lawrinson.

Moving the goal posts there Tom. How much does a forced deflation cost?

A forced deflation is a near miss. Do some research.

They are dangerous to do, they stress/damage the roof and are a last resort to avoid a collapse.

 

[xc84]

Have you ever even been to a game in Ann Arbor?

Yes

 

[xc84]

A forced deflation is a near miss. Do some research.

They are dangerous to do, they stress/damage the roof and are a last resort to avoid a collapse.

I bet Sala would agree that his job is to basically dodge bullets all year long.