Save The Dome, Part 1: Raise the Roof

[Millhouse]

A forced deflation is a near miss. Do some research.

They are dangerous to do, they stress/damage the roof and are a last resort to avoid a collapse.

You can deflate the roof on purpose to lessen the risk of a collapse. Got it. Thanks!

 

[Millhouse]

i hope none of the smart guys in this thread think that I am arguing for an air supported roof on a new stadium if they end up building it.

anyone who actually reads the thread will see that i'm asking about difference in risk between air supported and fixed. i wasn't arguing that there was no risk. i was arguing that people who want a new dome for other reasons might overstate that risk

just because other cities have built giant retractable palaces doesn't mean that the roof is to blame. NFL teams replace open air stadiums all the time too.

if we end up saving hundreds of millions by keeping the dome, surely some of that money can be spent on maintaining the new roof better than the nearly abandoned silverdome did and of course that cost should be taken into consideration.

 

[Millhouse]

I bet Sala would agree that his job is to basically dodge bullets all year long.

you could pay a lot of bullet dodgers to help him with a few hundred million

 

[sutomcat]

You can deflate the roof on purpose to lessen the risk of a collapse. Got it. Thanks!

That is correct. I recommend reading the linked articles and reading what Sala says. Maybe you know more about air supported domes and managing them than he does?

 

[Millhouse]

That is correct. I recommend reading the linked articles and reading what Sala says. Maybe you know more about air supported domes and managing them than he does?

Tom, reread the thread. Actually, just read it for the first time. I didn't say that air supported roofs brought no additional risk than fixed. I asked how much.

It would be nice to quantify the risk to know whether it's worth insuring against it. Your googling of domes that have been replaced (as if I was arguing that new domes should have air supported roofs) and your observation that air supported domes do sometimes deflate don't address that.

There is nothing in Sala's link that tries to estimate that risk in dollars and probabilities at all.

Choosing to put a fixed roof on a new building a team might want for a million other reasons doesn't tell us much about the roof specific risk that might drive our decision here.

I don't know more about air supported domes than Sala but I do know more about reading English than you apparently

 

[OttoMets]

I have included a few images of the design for the new stadium for the Vikings below.

Note the high angle of the roof you mentioned above. That angle is there specifically to try and ensure snow slides off the roof. Looks like they focused on opening the southern side of the stadium to the sun. At the Dome, that would unfortunately provide views of the ESF campus, Oakwood Cemetery and maybe Sentinel Heights (not downtown).

Minneapolis gets an average of 45 inches of snow per year. Syracuse gets 115. Any fixed roof design for a stadium in Syracuse would have to take into account the heavy snowfall that the roof will be subjected to on a regular basis here, so we would never be subject to a Hartford Civic Center type disaster.

The translucent part of the roof is made possible by a substance known as ETFE. More on that below. I would think if the Dome ever gets a fixed roof, it would probably feature this stuff. Note the weight (1/100th the weight of glass).

What is ETFE?
ETFE is a co-polymer resin that is extruded into a thin film. The plastic-like material is transparent but can be treated to be translucent, is extremely light-weight, very durable and resistant to corrosion. In an architectural application ETFE is typically used in a multi-layer pneumatic system.

What is the life/longevity of ETFE?
ETFE does not degrade with exposure to UV light, atmospheric pollution or extreme temperatures. The material has withstood extensive testing within extreme environments, and is expected to have a 30-50 year life expectancy while requiring minimal maintenance.

How does ETFE handle weight/pressure?
Despite its weight (1/100 the weight of glass) ETFE handles snow/wind loads very well. In sheet form, it can stretch three times its length without losing elasticity.

How do you clean ETFE?
ETFE systems are extremely low maintenance. The surface of the foil is non-stick and non-porous, which allows the natural action of rain to clean the surface. Deposits of dirt, dust and debris remain unattached and are washed away in the rain, meaning ETFE effectively self-cleans with virtually no need to clean externally.

Will snow/ice build up on the roof of the stadium?
Several characteristics of this roof are designed for Minnesota’s climate. First, the slope of the stadium - rising from approximately 205 feet from grade in the east to 272 feet high in the west - will give the building a unique ability to shed snow. Secondly, the translucent ETFE material will allow more sunlight and radiant heat through the roof, which combined with the natural rise of heat from inside the stadium will help melt the snow and ice. Diverters will redirect it into gutters and collection basins located on the edges of the roof, keeping snow and ice from falling to the ground below.

Everything You Wanted to Know About the New Viking Stadium

If SU were to build a rigid, pitched roof, I wouldn't be surprised if the high end faced toward downtown; this would allow the slope to take the most winter sun and speed up the snow melt.

Not sure if this could be incorporated into the existing Dome structure, however. My money is on a fixed, cable-supported roof (like the Georgia Dome).

 

[CousCuse]

If any of you missed any of Millhouses' sage insights into public funding of a new sports facility , they will be compiled into a textbook and he will be offering a masters level course. If you just want to purchase the text the title is , " And Thus I Refute White Elephants , Arguments Against Frivolous Public Spending."

 

[javadoc]

I have included a few images of the design for the new stadium for the Vikings below...

My only concern with ETFE, which I am sure has been thought of, is scratching. The roof will look terrible if it starts to get milky and opaque due to abrasion from the elements.

 

[Millhouse]

If any of you missed any of Millhouses' sage insights into public funding of a new sports facility , they will be compiled into a textbook and he will be offering a masters level course. If you just want to purchase the text the title is , " And Thus I Refute White Elephants , Arguments Against Frivolous Public Spending."

smart response

 

[xc84]

you could pay a lot of bullet dodgers to help him with a few hundred million

Your rationale is all based simple direct maintenance costs. Mine is not. If all I wanted to do was watch a football game, I'd do that at home in front of a TV.

However, even with that said, how much would it cost SU to e.g. lose half of their game revenue not to mention intangibles due to a major tear? How many NCAA tournament games would they get after 1 or 2 of those type of incidences?

 

[Millhouse]

Your rationale is all based simple direct maintenance costs. Mine is not. If all I wanted to do was watch a football game, I'd do that at home in front of a TV.

However, even with that said, how much would it cost SU to e.g. lose half of their game revenue not to mention intangibles due to a major tear? How many NCAA tournament games would they get after 1 or 2 of those type of incidences?

no a major tear would cost them a lot of game revenue and of course that should be factored into the risk calculation. that goes without saying.

 

[sutomcat]

Tom, reread the thread. Actually, just read it for the first time. I didn't say that air supported roofs brought no additional risk than fixed. I asked how much.

It would be nice to quantify the risk to know whether it's worth insuring against it. Your googling of domes that have been replaced (as if I was arguing that new domes should have air supported roofs) and your observation that air supported domes do sometimes deflate don't address that.

There is nothing in Sala's link that tries to estimate that risk in dollars and probabilities at all.

Choosing to put a fixed roof on a new building a team might want for a million other reasons doesn't tell us much about the roof specific risk that might drive our decision here.

I don't know more about air supported domes than Sala but I do know more about reading English than you apparently

With all respect, you need to learn to read better.

You responded to a post of mine disagreeing that it was a miracle the Dome hasn't had a catastrophic collapse. I responded, gave many facts to defend my position, then you responded to that by accusing me of 'moving the goalposts'.

 

[Millhouse]

With all respect, you need to learn to read better. You responded to a post of mine disagreeing that it was a miracle the Dome hasn't had a catastrophic collapse. I responded, gave many facts to defend my position, then you responded to that by accusing me of 'moving the goalposts'.

Your facts supporting your statement that it's a miracle there hast been a catastrophic collapse are simply to point out that domes are deflated to avoid catastrophic collapse

You are not worth my time. I am done here.

 

[xc84]

Your facts supporting your statement that it's a miracle there hast been a catastrophic collapse are simply to point out that domes are deflated to avoid catastrophic collapse

It’s our worst nightmare,” Sala said of the Metrodome’s collapse under 2 feet of snow early Sunday morning. “Those guys are going through hell right now.”

In Minneapolis, workers were on the Metrodome’s roof for seven straight hours on Saturday. But on Saturday evening, high winds forced workers to come down off the roof around 6 p.m. The roof collapsed around 5 a.m. on Sunday.

“They did everything they should have done,” Sala said of the Metrodome officials.

​

The roof moves. It’s a living, breathing thing,” Sala said. “The bridge cables can twist, the Teflon can tear. It’s vulnerable. Now your fear is the wind. When the roof is down, the wind is your enemy. And now you have to melt the snow. All that water is coming into your facility. I guess water on field is better than a tear in your roof."
“This type of thing can happen in the blink of an eye,” Sala said. “I worry every day.”​

Sala said what happened in Minnesota could just as easily happen in Syracuse. “I’ve been telling everybody at the university,” said Sala, “you’re as vulnerable as the next big snowstorm.”

 

[Scooch]

WHY DON'T WE PLAY MORE MAN?!?!

 

[xc84]

no a major tear would cost them a lot of game revenue and of course that should be factored into the risk calculation.

Um, then why haven't you??

 

[Millhouse]

Um, then why haven't you??

i defended miner because i thought this entire thing was too rushed and not poorly thought out.

one can be correct about that while still having to rely on more knowledgeable people to quantify the differences in roofs. those are two different things

who pays for the roof and what kind of roof is chosen are also two different things.

i think it's wrong to steal money to pay for our dome. i understand that's more debatable. I think it's stupid to rush a project like this and I think that's less debatable. i think thieves shouldn't worry so much about whether they will be able to steal in the future. they will. the least we could do is have a methodical transparent process.

 

[OttoMets]

​

First (minor quibble), Sala's a serious guy, but that's an off-the-cuff remark that the Metrodome staff did everything they should have done; he wasn't up on the roof with them and wouldn't presume to know exactly what they did. I bet his guys are better-practiced in snow removal; further, they're working with a better facility.

Second (as I just noted; not mentioned in most of these threads), Syracuse's circa-1999 replacement roof is not only a state-of-the-art model -- better than those demolished with the Metrodome or replaced in Pontiac and at UNI -- but it's never been lowered and subsequently hasn't suffered the wear that any other roof has had. Structurally it's virtually new.

To put it differently, the original Dome roof was a 20-year model that was lowered four or five times in 19+ years of life; the current roof is a 30-year version that's never come down, has never dropped a speaker, and has been patched extremely infrequently.

SU's not going to replace that roof any time soon. It also won't install another air-supported roof. But they've got at least 15 years left to worry about replacing this one. Meanwhile, the threat of a catastrophic failure is extraordinarily low and doesn't look to increase in the near future (they'll increase the next time a serious blizzard requires deflation or a summer derecho starts to rearrange the structure, or in 2030, whichever comes first).

 

[blizz]

EFTE?...You guys lack vision!

 

[xc84]

First (minor quibble), Sala's a serious guy, but that's an off-the-cuff remark that the Metrodome staff did everything they should have done; he wasn't up on the roof with them and wouldn't presume to know exactly what they did. I bet his guys are better-practiced in snow removal; further, they're working with a better facility.

Second (as I just noted; not mentioned in most of these threads), Syracuse's circa-1999 replacement roof is not only a state-of-the-art model -- better than those demolished with the Metrodome or replaced in Pontiac and at UNI -- but it's never been lowered and subsequently hasn't suffered the wear that any other roof has had. Structurally it's virtually new.

To put it differently, the original Dome roof was a 20-year model that was lowered four or five times in 19+ years of life; the current roof is a 30-year version that's never come down, has never dropped a speaker, and has been patched extremely infrequently.

SU's not going to replace that roof any time soon. It also won't install another air-supported roof. But they've got at least 15 years left to worry about replacing this one. Meanwhile, the threat of a catastrophic failure is extraordinarily low and doesn't look to increase in the near future (they'll increase the next time a serious blizzard requires deflation or a summer derecho starts to rearrange the structure, or in 2030, whichever comes first).

Ok...so it's basically much different than any other dome with the same technology...most of which have had fabric rips. Honestly, given I quoted the guy who takes care of the dome and he said things like this: "This type of thing can happen in the blink of an eye,” Sala said. “I worry every day.”

Add to that that almost every other dome with the same technology has had rips.

And yet, for some, the response is always, "Nah, it's very unlikely there will be problems"

I swear, if the dome fabric ripped today some would say it's a mirage.

 

[OttoMets]

Ok...so it's basically much different than any other dome with the same technology...most of which have had fabric rips. Honestly, given I quoted the guy who takes care of the dome and he said things like this: "This type of thing can happen in the blink of an eye,” Sala said. “I worry every day.”

Add to that that almost every other dome with the same technology has had rips.

And yet, for some, the response is always, "Nah, it's very unlikely there will be problems"

I swear, if the dome fabric ripped today some would say it's a mirage.

If the fabric ripped today, that would be a spectacularly unforeseeable and unlikely event. It wouldn't make me wrong. Fact is, the odds of a catastrophic rip -- much less a spontaneous rip -- are very, very low.

Further, just because all air-supported domes use the same technology doesn't mean each dome is of the same quality or has had the same life. All pants have the same technology, but if I'm worried about them splitting, I'll take the higher-end ones that have been hanging in the closet for most of a decade over the bargain rack pair that have been worn four days a week by the 300-pound man for a last few years.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

It might snow next winter.

There might be a tornado in the Midwest next week.

There might be a hurricane on the East Coast in a few months.

There might be an earthquake on the West Coast next year.

The Zombie Apocalypse is just around the corner.

We better rebuild or relocate every stadium in the country. Just to be safe.

 

[SU2NASA]

Ok...so it's basically much different than any other dome with the same technology...most of which have had fabric rips. Honestly, given I quoted the guy who takes care of the dome and he said things like this: "This type of thing can happen in the blink of an eye,” Sala said. “I worry every day.”

Add to that that almost every other dome with the same technology has had rips.

And yet, for some, the response is always, "Nah, it's very unlikely there will be problems"

I swear, if the dome fabric ripped today some would say it's a mirage.

If it ripped, where would the basketball team go? War Memorial?

 

[xc84]

If it ripped, where would the basketball team go? War Memorial?

MSG

 

[SU2NASA]

MSG

Have fun with that scheduling