Should Shafer be given a 3rd year? (LONG) | Page 4 | Syracusefan.com

Should Shafer be given a 3rd year? (LONG)

Not sure we're talking about the same thing. My point is that when people suggest "all" we need to do is replicate what we did in the 80s and 90s that I think it's a fools errand. We took advantage of the ever-popular "market inefficiencies" back then (recruiting black QBs, recruiting under-the-radar kids in FL, converting player's positions to emphasize speed, focus on special teams, benefiting from Pitt/Temple/Rutgers being total jokes, etc). We need to find those kind of under-utilized opportunities today. Or we can try to be a "hardnosed" and win 7 games in a good year.

FWIW, I'd suggest that the reasons why some programs are typically "good" is because college athletics is a rigged game. The system is built to make sure that the schools with legacies and big revenue-generating machines stay on top. It's actually a much bigger surprise that a Michigan can go through the down cycle they're in now than to see a Baylor ascend, IMHO.

This is exactly why I'm not convinced that our current strategy is sound.

We want to run the type of offense that gets athletes in space with the ball and a chance to make a play. We also want to build a team around players that are not blue chip recruits. Those two seem to be at odds with one another. To be successful in business, you can either do better what everyone else is doing, or you can do something nobody else is doing. We are trying to do what everyone else is doing with lesser players. It's great that we are getting kids out of Florida. But we aren't beating FSU or UF for those kids. So when we try to run a fast paced passing offense against FSU, we aren't going to succeed.

I know the dome is a great place to run a wide open, track-meet style offense. But does it really help us if the visiting team's athletes are faster than ours to begin with?

We used speed to our advantage in the dome when power football was the prevailing style. Maybe its time to rethink trying to beat the rest of the P5 at their own game.
 
Unless Doc Gross gets canned, then HCSS comes back, and I believe he should. Definitely needs to make changes on the offensive staff, to say the least. if 2015 turns into a dumpster fire like this year, then he will be gone after year 3.
 
Until this school wakes up about football, it's never going to be easy. The IPF is great, but is already behind the times when compared to other IPFs (as frightening as that is).

Two things need to happen, A) we all stop caring about football (similar to our administration) or B) Syracuse University pledges to go all in for 5-7 years to see if we can really get this program back on a national level.

I'm not holding my breath on (B) even though it NEEDS to happen. I will never be able to go with (A). However, this program isn't good for my or anyone else's health unless things drastically change.
 
Macky44 said:
Imagine you walk into a dumpster-fire of a job, where everything is 5 years behind where it should be. You have a mountain of things to overcome, just to get back to status-quo. You also are asked to work with a staff that is barely average ( the players ) and are only given 2 quarters in a business year to figure it all out and get out of the red. This is what Shafer was put up against. YES, i realize he knew what he was walking into, and he hired his own staff. He was still using Marrone's players that were recruited for a different style than Shafer is running, and the guys Shafer HAS recruited are some of the few bright spots we have seen this season. Give the guy a chance. We have been in almost every game this year..even against FSU and Clemson. He needs at least 2 more years to show what he is capable of.

Doug Marrone walked into a dumpster fire. Shafer didn't.
 
Here's the problem I have with 'Big Name' coaches. Let's think about a few that we were sure could fix our program.

Edsall - playing .500 ball at MD
Holtz - Fired from USF, doing well at LaTech unless you look at games against P5 teams. Apparently he's a very good CUSA coach.
Locksley - 2-26 at New Mexico
Leach at WSU needs no explanation(pay attention air raid lovers)

Nothing's a sure thing in college football. I'm not advocating that we keep hiring nobody's either, just don't think because somebody had success at one place it means they will here. Every school has it's own set of recruiting challenges, player atmosphere, fan base, etc. There's no sure fire formula.
 
Not only does he get a third year, he gets a fourth year.

Because Syracuse University doesn't fire coaches unless they have just 1 year left on their contracts.

It would take a disaster of "Grobian" proportions in 2015 for SU to even consider cutting ties with Shafer and the entire staff any earlier than that.
There have been some issues but it's really hard to draw conclusions with half the offense on crutches. DG said as much to Mark Larson during half-time of the SU-Carlton MBB game. There's no way he's going to make any major coaching moves any time soon.

That said, it's pretty obvious that unless we have a MAJOR influx of new talent in consecutive recruiting classes, we're going to be slumped over in the conference basement with WF for the indefinite future. The talent deficit is cavernous at this point, not only at the skill positions but on the OL.

If I'm DG, I'd come up with a million dollars for a couple of crackerjack recruiters with extensive connections in georgia and florida. Give SS something to work with, a mobile QB that is 6'3 or taller, some receivers that can separate, LB's big enough to hit and still cover RB wheel routes, an OL that isn't laying on the field every other play, etc...

We may not be rich. But since we went from $8M to $23M there's got to be some money to correct the talent problem, or all the other expenditures will seem a little silly.
 
The reality of Marrone's 4 years here, 2-0 in bowl games, 11-17 in the Big East, OOC wins, Maine -2, Akron-2, Colgate, Rhode Island, Toledo, Tulane, Stony Brook, that's 9 cup cakes, and the other 3 were Wake Forest, Northwestern, and Missouri. In reality we weren't even respectable when Doug left, we had a long way to go.
 
I think the entire offense was baffled against Nova when they looked up and saw Wilson at QB instead of Hunt. I believe that Wilson was just as baffled himself.

They didn't look too baffled against Maryland when they churned out 589 yards of offense.

Take away Hunt's Pick-6 against Maryland, and Long's Pick-6 last week, and we're 5-4.

The staff must be doing some things right.
But unfortunately you can't take away the Pick-6s. Every home game seems to feature one in front of the SU bench.
 
You are, no doubt, right. But, Shafer has to totally rethink his approach because it simply isn't working.
For one its not simple. You don't just come in at the 11th hour of recruiting 2 years ago trying to save the recruits for a different type of game plan, then with your only year of your own recruits, turn a program around. Coach Mac was well past this point in his stint before his recruits started to change us into a formidable program.

So your point his approach isn't working has no basis. It is far too soon to know that. Especially given what his true freshman have already shown. Give these guys a year or two in the weight room to develop along with the extra years of experience and add a few more years of this type of recruiting. Then we will know how well his approach is working.
 
I ask this because the more I think about it, the more I think that retaining him will only delay the inevitable.

Listen, I like Scott Shafer as a man. I like his core values, his enthusiasm, and I just think he's a good person. But I also felt that way about GRob. And unfortunately, I'm starting to think that, like GRob, Shafer just doesn't have what it takes to be a successful Head Coach. Effective D-Coordinator, yes; HC, not so sure.

Now I'll be the first to admit, if he somehow leads this team to 3 straight wins and a bowl game, my opinion will change b/c he will have then pulled off a miracle and will have justly earned the right to remain HC.

But that 's not likely, imho. It's more likely that we lose all 3. Right now we're lucky to be 3-6 (should be 2-7; thanks Villanova kicker). We're likely NOT going bowling, and while recruiting has improved some (still not killing it), overall, there's just been nothing else that I've seen during Shafer's reign that leads me to believe that the program is definitively trending in the right direction. Since he's taken over, there have just been several poor decisions made on his part that have lead to what will likely be a losing record after his 1st two years at the helm.

There are various examples (Allen over Hunt, misuse of personnel & redshirts, several in-game decisions, etc.) but I'll focus on what I believe to be his most glaring and costly faux paus: The hiring and firing (essentially) of George McDonald.

In theory, it was a smart hire. Bring in a young up & coming coach whose true forte is recruiting; specifically recruiting in talent-rich South Florida. But to pry him away from the SEC job he held, SS had to offer him the OC spot. With that comes a degree of risk but it's a risk I think Shafer was wise to take.

But the problem is that he brings in a guy who wants to run a spread "N-Zone" attack that A) SU simply doesn't have the personnel to run effectively, and B) philosophically doesn't really mesh well with Shaf's wheelhouse which is tough, stifling defense. Everyone knows that ball control and a strong running game is a stout defenses' best friend. Three & outs are the enemy. Even a lousy (head) coach like Rex Ryan was initially able to win when he had the "ground-n-pound" thing working for him.

But this "N-Zone" system is a pass-first system that seems to de-emphasize the run game and instead relies on short passes and bubble screens, which are considered "long handoffs." The problem there is that you need an accurate QB and fast, dynamic playmakers for this offense to really click; components that SU didn't have at the time of the hire (and arguably, still doesn't). What they DID have was returning power back (now on an NFL roster) who had rushed for 1100 yds, and his sidekick who added another 800 yds & a bowl game MVP by exploding for 200+.

So to me, SS's 1st poor decision was moving to this all-shotgun, all-spread, pass-oriented attack when your personnel and strengths as a coach were better suited for a "multiple," more run-oriented style like Marrone/Hackett employed and like Harbaugh/Pep Hamilton ran at Stanford. Both of these balanced but run-oriented styles still incorporated enough passing to allow Andrew Luck to throw his way to the #1 pick and for Ryan Nassib to ascend to a 4th round pick. Why Shafer didn't choose to replicate the Marrone/Stanford approach is baffling to me, considering he was a part of both staffs and saw the successes first hand. Now we all suffer from the repercussions of that initial poor choice when we watch this mismatched, ineffective offensive system continually sputter & stumble every Saturday.

But as bad as choosing to fit the proverbial 'square peg in a round hole' with the GMac hire/N-Zone implementation, imho, demoting the man 18 games into his tenure as OC was an even worse decision. I mean, I know many fans wanted GM's head on a platter and were very pleased when they got it. But let's face it, folks: switching to Lester hasn't made a bit of damn difference on the scoreboard or in the W-L column. The offense sucked under McDonald and it still sucks under Lester. The differences are miniscule at best.

And the reason is pretty obvious: there is a dearth of big time, game changing talent @ the skill positions on this team. There's not one offensive player on this team that keeps opposing D-coordinators up at night. And while GMac may not have been the best play caller in the world, it really doesn't matter what you call when your QB is inaccurate, when your receivers regularly drop passes and your O-line is undisciplined, mistake-prone & often over-matched.

IMO, Shafer should have rode out the storm w/ McDonald and allowed him work through his struggles the same way Marrone allowed Hackett to work through his. And again, that's something Shafer was witness to but apparently didn't learn from it; not a good sign. McDonald is a bright guy and had he just been afforded the opportunity to grow into his new role the same way Hackett was, in the long run, the program would've been better off for it. While there was no guarantee GM would've "got it" the way NH did, I think Shafer would've been better served micro-managing GMac a little more, being more hands-on in the offensive game plan/play calling or maybe even bringing in a "consultant" to assist McDonald.

But by pulling the plug 18 games in and demoting GMac, Shafer has now virtually guaranteed his departure. And I believe that will ultimately prove to be something he (and we) will regret. While some folks try to diminish his accomplishments as a recruiter, I just have four words for you: Steve Ishmael, Miami Florida. Trying getting another player that damn talented out of Dade county to come to SU without GMac. And he was just getting started, imo. But by unwisely burning that bridge, which I believe Shafer has done, you still have a putrid offense but now you'll be without your ace recruiter who can bring in the kind of studs this team so desperately needs. And now you're kind of stuck w/ Lester as your OC for whatever that's worth (could be a good thing; could not) b/c I don't think Shafer will be able to attract a big time OC coming off of a (likely) losing season that will at the very minimum have his seat warm, if not flat out hot. To me, demoting GM was a reactionary panic move, not a well thought out, measured move; again, another bad sign, imo.

But whether you agree or disagree with the GMac demotion, I don't think it's unfair to say that Shafer's handling of the offensive side of the ball has been poor at best, bordering on incompetent, not unlike the Rex Ryans and GRobs of the world who continually change OCs and reshuffle the offensive deck only to end up in the same inept place.

Again, I really like Scott Shafer but I just don't see the sharpness, the certitude and clarity of vision that one often detects in a winning coach (in any sport). I think what we're seeing in Shaf is guy who's fiery & passionate, good at what he does (defense) but in over his head as a HC. Good Lieutenants don't always make good Generals and I'm afraid that's what we're seeing unfold w/ SS.

And we've all seen this movie before. It rarely ends well.

So back to my original question: Assuming Shafer doesn't run the table, does Gross (or the next AD if there is to be one) give SS a third year to try to right the ship? Or does he see another GRob situation developing and cut his losses now like he erroneously DIDN'T do with Robinson? Your thoughts.

yes
 
DG said as much to Mark Larson during half-time of the SU-Carlton MBB game. There's no way he's going to make any major coaching moves any time soon.

Gross said there's no way "HE" was going to make any major coaching moves any time soon. See the play on words there?
 
The Cubs just fired their manager after one year and hired Joe Maddon.

What is Maddon thinking?!

;)

Renteria was a terrible recruiter. Bunted on 4th down way too much too.
 
The reality of Marrone's 4 years here, 2-0 in bowl games, 11-17 in the Big East, OOC wins, Maine -2, Akron-2, Colgate, Rhode Island, Toledo, Tulane, Stony Brook, that's 9 cup cakes, and the other 3 were Wake Forest, Northwestern, and Missouri. In reality we weren't even respectable when Doug left, we had a long way to go.

Yeah, that's where they were at the end of 12.

Jesus get a clue, please.
 
I agreed with most that was said to the original post. And the demoting of McDonald was a turning point for me as well. If you're not happy with the way the offense is going then do what every HC should do. Take it over yourself. Call the plays yourself.

Instead he handed the most important and most needy part of the team over to one of the lowest paid assistants on staff?

It basically tells me that one of his position coaches is more knowledgeable about offense then him. That is not good. How can we expect we'll ever have a good offense if our HC is too afraid to take control of that side of the ball.

It reminds me of having a boss that didn't know how to do my job and then would try to criticize me for not doing right.
 
DomeStranger said:
I agreed with most that was said to the original post. And the demoting of McDonald was a turning point for me as well. If you're not happy with the way the offense is going then do what every HC should do. Take it over yourself. Call the plays yourself. Instead he handed the most important and most needy part of the team over to one of the lowest paid assistants on staff? It basically tells me that one of his position coaches is more knowledgeable about offense then him. That is not good. How can we expect we'll ever have a good offense if our HC is too afraid to take control of that side of the ball. It reminds me of having a boss that didn't know how to do my job and then would try to criticize me for not doing right.

No way.

Being a leader means knowing what you don't know and putting guys in place who can do the job better than you ever could. Shafer doesn't want to call offense.
 
Gross said there's no way "HE" was going to make any major coaching moves any time soon. See the play on words there?

I'll take Shafer for another year if it means another AD picking the new coach. Gross is batting .333 on these hires right now. Marrone has shown that even a halfway decent coach can get a dying program back on its knees if not its feet pretty quickly. I'm not terrified by a coaching revolving door. The right guy will put us on track soon enough. I just don't trust Gross to make that decision. Get the Cincy AD. He seems to have figured out this whole hiring football coaches thing pretty good.
 
supp said:
I'll take Shafer for another year if it means another AD picking the new coach. Gross is batting .333 on these hires right now. Marrone has shown that even a halfway decent coach can get a dying program back on its knees if not its feet pretty quickly. I'm not terrified by a coaching revolving door. The right guy will put us on track soon enough. I just don't trust Gross to make that decision. Get the Cincy AD. He seems to have figured out this whole hiring football coaches thing pretty good.

Cincy runs the gauntlet. Went from Dantonio who is all defense no offense to Tuberville who is all offense and no defense.
 
The reality of Marrone's 4 years here, 2-0 in bowl games, 11-17 in the Big East, OOC wins, Maine -2, Akron-2, Colgate, Rhode Island, Toledo, Tulane, Stony Brook, that's 9 cup cakes, and the other 3 were Wake Forest, Northwestern, and Missouri. In reality we weren't even respectable when Doug left, we had a long way to go.
How dare you.
 
This is really simple - you can't win with all these injuries - period. Saint Doug couldn't do it either - lost 7 in a row from the end of 2011 to the first two games of 2012. Once we got healthy we were great.

This year's injuries have been greater than that period and the talent on that team was terrific.
upload_2014-11-4_8-10-29.png


Everything else we can say has to be viewed in light of the unprecedented injuries this team has suffered. Injuries just can't be ignored. Now, I am going for a walk on the beach. Better thinking there.
 
This.

Many of us remember the 90s, and others the 80s. The problem is that those years are irrelevant in 2o14.

The kids who are being recruited today were all of 3 or 4 years old the last time SU was ranked. We have an awesome commercial that we run during games that shows McNabb waving a towel on the bench as we throttled Miami... SIXTEEN years ago, practically before our next class of recruits were born.

Since 2002 Syracuse is 61-94. Let than sink in... 61 wins and 94 losses. Do you know that if it were 2002 and we had to go backwards to get to 94 losses... we'd go all the way to 1979. 23 seasons.

We haven't been ranked, and have been to three insignificant bowls. I'm pretty sure almost every P5 school has been ranked at least one measely week since 2002.

We've been a mediocre-at-best, lousy-at-worst program for a long time now. We need to find new solutions.

Shafer will be retained, that's obvious and probably correct.

If there's a new AD soon then he or she should get to select the next HC, should we need one.


I ask again because I smell the smoke, is Gross remotely in trouble of getting canned and/or taking another job? I think everything revolves around that decision regarding new direction, coach, etc. I agree Shafer shouldn't be canned but the program needs an enema. The bowl games are fools gold. If there was such bowl games in the mid 90s, we would have gone to halfway decent ones in 93 and 94 (when we had good teams that slumped down the stretch).

People need to stop lauding what Marrone did because it assumes the program was fixed when he left. He did a wonderful job of making them a step above irrelevant but they were still, on reputation alone, a fringe program. Again, this isn't a shot at Marrone or a pat on the back to Pasqualoni. The facts are the facts to me. We haven't sniffed receiving votes since 2002. Let alone the polls. That's pathetic. I look at it another way, if we could summon Nick Saban to Syracuse, I guarantee he could fix it under 18 months. There are other Saban lites lurking. Maybe Shafer is one with one more cycle of recruits. We need to find that guy. Maybe it's Tressel at some point. I don't know and I'm not paid to know. All I do know is this doesn't pass the smell test at all to me.

We need to figure out a way to make syracuse SYRACUSE again. That to me is the big issue. The hoops program is SYRACUSE.
 
This is really simple - you can't win with all these injuries - period. Saint Doug couldn't do it either - lost 7 in a row from the end of 2011 to the first two games of 2012. Once we got healthy we were great.

This year's injuries have been greater than that period and the talent on that team was terrific.
View attachment 29627

Everything else we can say has to be viewed in light of the unprecedented injuries this team has suffered. Injuries just can't be ignored. Now, I am going for a walk on the beach. Better thinking there.
part of the reason injuries were such a problem were because so many guys were chased off the team
 
part of the reason injuries were such a problem were because so many guys were chased off the team
Adazzio chased off half the team he inherited too, but it didn't seem to hurt BC.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
170,350
Messages
4,886,228
Members
5,992
Latest member
meierscreek

Online statistics

Members online
234
Guests online
1,346
Total visitors
1,580


...
Top Bottom