The Case for Giving Shafer More Time

[Alsacs]

The question should be how long will it take to constantly have Syracuse at a level where 7-5 or 8-4 more often than not.

I don't want a staff where we have to get breaks just to get 6-6. We should schedule 3 non-conference wins a year and have a staff that can go 3-5 in conference play pretty much every year. I don't think we will go 3-5 in conference play now that we lost to UVA. That was such an important game. I won't like it but 4-8 I would give SS another year even though I hate it. We lose out good bye no discussion.

 

[TheCusian]

You think a system that spits out 73 or 83 or whatever you say it is valid based on those inputs? Your whole argument is based on a false premise. And you can't possibly believe that where the program was in 2009 and 2012 are close to equivalent. because if that really is what you are trying to say, you're FOS.

You must not have read the OP. That's not what I said at all.

 

[TheCusian]

What's the context for being 13 - 18 and adding to the loss column by the end of the season? You say "context" as if this is a one season anomaly and fans are freaking out for no reason. The real context is the overall record has gotten worse since Marrone left. We have no impressive signature wins. We've never beaten one team in the top half of the rankings. We've had numerous "never in the game" games. We have an OL coach who's never coached the OL. We didn't even make an attempt to at least interview any OC's to see if there was someone special to potentially bring in. I don't know what the answer is but many of the arguments to hang on to Shafer I don't buy into. At the same time I don't know that replacing him at the end of the season is the answer either.

If the question was "did Marrone have a better record with more signature wins and less blowouts" then the answer is yes.

If the question is "given where we've been over the previous 7 seasons, is it fair to give Shafer another season" - I think the answer is yes. But that's my opinion.

 

[TheCusian]

The question should be how long will it take to constantly have Syracuse at a level where 7-5 or 8-4 more often than not. I don't want a staff where we have to get breaks just to get 6-6. We should schedule 3 non-conference wins a year and have a staff that can go 3-5 in conference play pretty much every year. I don't think we will go 3-5 in conference play now that we lost to UVA. That was such an important game. I won't like it but 4-8 I would give SS another year even though I hate it. We lose out good bye no discussion.

Agreed. But it's worth mentioning that Marrone didn't have us at that level. We were up and down. I wish he'd have stayed or we were able to keep Hackett on. I believe he would have.

 

[Millhouse]

Any system the calculates that this is the 83rd best offense isn't worth a thing:

Out of 120 teams

Total Offense 115
Rushing Offense 55
Passing Offense 114
Pass 114
Offensive TD's 111
RedZone Attempts 120
3rd Down 116
Sacks Allowed 94
Pass Attempts 114
Scoring Offense 108

They had the 114th fewest pass attempts on the season and yet had the 94th highest number of sacks given up.

SU had 124 offensive possessions that year that didn't end with time running out at the end of a half.

66 Punts, 12 Failed 4th down conversions, 4 Fumbles lost, 8 Ints, 4 missed Field Goals, 22 TD's, 8 made field goals.

On 124 possessions they scored 30 times. On 124 possessions they reached the redzone 23 times.

not saying the ranking's right - it's too much of a black box for my liking but here's the link
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ncaaoff2008

SU got high marks for pass downs and rushing offense. ranked 41 and 20th respectively. they treat sacks as passing yards, so maybe that explains the high marks for rushing but i don't know what the hell pass downs ranking is about. the running backs were good

 

[anomander]

Agreed. But it's worth mentioning that Marrone didn't have us at that level. We were up and down. I wish he'd have stayed or we were able to keep Hackett on. I believe he would have.

We weren't up and down under Marrone. 8 wins season 2, 5-2 in season 2 before injuries destroyed a season that had a ton of potential, and 8 wins and a legit top 20 team in 2012.

 

[TheCusian]

We weren't up and down under Marrone. 8 wins season 2, 5-2 in season 2 before injuries destroyed a season that had a ton of potential, and 8 wins and a legit top 20 team in 2012.

2009 and 2011 were not that good. Hence the up and down. 2010 we played a really poor schedule. The offense was just about 2014 bad and we got bailed out by Shafer's D.

Last years team could have found a way to 6 wins with that schedule.

 

[Alsacs]

We weren't up and down under Marrone. 8 wins season 2, 5-2 in season 2 before injuries destroyed a season that had a ton of potential, and 8 wins and a legit top 20 team in 2012.

Stop using facts. I mean we all know the only reason those seasons were successful was the D. C'mon.

We have clearly gone backwards. Yet people want to ignore that or make excuses. Our program is non-existent on the national stage and have gone backwards yet no matter SS gets year 4 according to some.

I have no problem saying we underachieved in 2012. The losses to Northwestern, Rutgers, Cincinnati were games we should have won. However the wins over Louisville and Missouri were good wins.

 

[anomander]

2009 and 2011 were not that good. Hence the up and down. 2010 we played a really poor schedule. The offense was just about 2014 bad and we got bailed out by Shafer's D.

Last years team could have found a way to 6 wins with that schedule.

The 3-9 team from last year where we weren't in any of the last 3 or 4 games? No freaking way.

 

[Finwad32]

What's this less blowouts garbage? What's the line of delineation? Are we talking the two or three true blowout HCSS has endured.

To me, 17 is a good #. Well in their first 3 years, Marrone had 12 17+ losses, Shafer has had 10 17+ losses to this point.

What is the point of debating this?

A loss is a loss.

Signature wins?

Marrone - a 4-8 Mizzou? WV annually? Minnesota beat him twice.

Shafer - Minnesota?

Who cares?

Each season is its own individual entity. Are we better than last year? What's our future look like with the current personnel in the current system?

That's what I care about.

Arguing against ghosts is completely pointless. Marrone did a great job when he was here. Hopefully Shafer can get to a point where the fan base wants to say that too.

Holy crap how many threads can we start to debate the worthiness of this staff and if it constitutes a canning?

Rant over

 

[Alsacs]

2009 and 2011 were not that good. Hence the up and down. 2010 we played a really poor schedule. The offense was just about 2014 bad and we got bailed out by Shafer's D.

Last years team could have found a way to 6 wins with that schedule.

2011 we were killed with injuries. You allow the injury excuse for last year but forget 2011. We started that 5-2 and had a great upset win on national TV in primetime over #11 WVU.

Shafer's D? Or Doug Marrone's D? Your defense of SS really is amazing. Honestly it is amazing. Our 2010 offense was 2014 bad?
Do you remember this game.

 

[Alsacs]

What's this less blowouts garbage? What's the line of delineation? Are we talking the two or three true blowout HCSS has endured.

To me, 17 is a good #. Well in their first 3 years, Marrone had 12 17+ losses, Shafer has had 10 17+ losses to this point.

What is the point of debating this?

A loss is a loss.

Signature wins?

Marrone - a 4-8 Mizzou? WV annually? Minnesota beat him twice.

Shafer - Minnesota?

Who cares?

Each season is its own individual entity. Are we better than last year? What's our future look like with the current personnel in the current system?

That's what I care about.

Arguing against ghosts is completely pointless. Marrone did a great job when he was here. Hopefully Shafer can get to a point where the fan base wants to say that too.

Holy crap how many threads can we start to debate the worthiness of this staff and if it constitutes a . . . . canning?

Rant over

Just an FYI under DM we beat a ranked team every year.
2009- Rutgers
2010- West Virginia
2011- West Virginia
2012- Louisville

I only debate when false narratives are stated. The blind defense of SS getting a 4th year drives me nuts. We need wins if we don't get another win this year their shouldn't be a debate.

 

[anomander]

Just an FYI under DM we beat a ranked team every year.
2009- Rutgers
2010- West Virginia
2011- West Virginia
2012- Louisville

I only debate when false narratives are stated. The blind defense of SS getting a 4th year drives me nuts. We need wins if we don't get another win this year their shouldn't be a debate.

How soon they forget...or want to forget to spin their narrative.

 

[Finwad32]

How soon they forget...or want to forget to spin their narrative.

Who's they? Because it's not me.

 

[Jack_Ball]

The only stats that matter are Wins/Losses...Everything else is irrelevant.. Marrone was 25-25 & Shaf is 13-18...Hopefully we can win this weekend and get some MO going to get to 6 wins...What I don't get is how a majority seems content with the possibility of back to back 3-9 seasons? Are the expectations really that low? I want Syracuse Football to win & be good again where we expect to go to a bowl every year and every so often catch lighting in a bottle and possibly win our division or win 9 or 10 games...i don't think that is too unreasonable? If we do lose out and go 3-9 again we have basically lost all MO that we had in changing the perception of Syracuse Football. Then we are basically looking at yet again another rebuild? Maybe I need to lower my expectations?

Sorry for the rant but frustrated...Just want to see the team win & Syracuse Football change the perception of being a laughing stock or national joke...Let's go orange..Let's get this W against Pitt

 

[TheCusian]

The 3-9 team from last year where we weren't in any of the last 3 or 4 games? No freaking way.

Look at the numbers. Similar offense. Better defense in 2014. Horrible SOS in 2010.

 

[Finwad32]

Just an FYI under DM we beat a ranked team every year.
2009- Rutgers
2010- West Virginia
2011- West Virginia
2012- Louisville

I only debate when false narratives are stated. The blind defense of SS getting a 4th year drives me nuts. We need wins if we don't get another win this year their shouldn't be a debate.

I'm not debating Doug's merit, anybody who knows me knows that I was as big of a Marrone supporter as anybody.

My narrative, and this isn't so much pointed at you Alsacs, was never to stand on one side of the argument or the other. It was simply to state that the debate means nothing to the current state of affairs.

I don't think getting another W this year is debatable, I struggle to see us going 0-6 on the way out, there's been too much I like from the offense, but that's just me.

My thoughts on this staffs ability have been determined, whether or not that comes to fruition remains to be seen. If none of it does come to fruition, well then there's something to talk about.

 

[orange7]

How bad the times have been for us fans to appreciate a 13-18 record and pray for a .500 team?

I want to start over because I already know where this is going..sorry to be a pessimistic person but I consider it being a realistic. Pitt will prove it this weekend. SS is just not a good game day coach and we don't have the top recruits even in our league to counter his coaching mistakes.

 

[anomander]

Look at the numbers. Similar offense. Better defense in 2014. Horrible SOS in 2010.

I would take the 2011 offense over last years offense every day of the week. I don't know what the numbers say, but at least there was a chance of scoring in 2011. Last year's offense before Hunt's injury we were accumulator's. They stacked yardage without really doing anything. Post Hunt it wasn't even that.

 

[Full_Rebar]

Stuff like this doesn't help. Two days ago, Lester said there were no plays under center, besides the kneel down, so which is the truth?

 

[Louie and Bouie]

Stop using facts. I mean we all know the only reason those seasons were successful was the D. C'mon.

We have clearly gone backwards. Yet people want to ignore that or make excuses. Our program is non-existent on the national stage and have gone backwards yet no matter SS gets year 4 according to some.

I have no problem saying we underachieved in 2012. The losses to Northwestern, Rutgers, Cincinnati were games we should have won. However the wins over Louisville and Missouri were good wins.

Facts? I thought I read we are one of only 2 teams that haven't been in the Top 25 over the past 15 years. So whose Top 20 is that? The Doug Marrone Coaches Poll?

 

[Alsacs]

Facts? I thought I read we are one of only 2 teams that haven't been in the Top 25 over the past 15 years. So whose Top 20 is that? The Doug Marrone Coaches Poll?

I have no idea what you are trying to say. Please explain the last 2 sentences.

 

[Louie and Bouie]

We weren't up and down under Marrone. 8 wins season 2, 5-2 in season 2 before injuries destroyed a season that had a ton of potential, and 8 wins and a legit top 20 team in 2012.

This. You called it facts.

 

[anomander]

This. You called it facts.

What are you talking about? I didn't call anything facts? I said the 2012 was a top 20 team by the end of the year. Maybe not ranking wise, but in real life.

 

[SWC75]

When I read all the threads about why we should fire Shafer and who our next coach should be, I can't help but think of this: