The Case for Giving Shafer More Time

[Alsacs]

This. You called it facts.

That 2012 team was a top 25 team by the end of the year. They lost 5 games and played in the Big East so they didn't get ranked.

http://espn.go.com/blog/ncfnation/post/_/id/74849/3-point-stance-can-chris-ault-stay-away
ESPN national writer Ivan Maisel gave us major props. We got votes in the final ESPN top 25 that year.

That 2012 team was a top 25. It lost stupid games to Rutgers and Cincinnati. The Big East ref literally stole the Cincinnati game I will never forgive the BE for that screwjob in Cincinnati.

 

[SWC75]

Bring on the ants!

 

[TheCusian]

That 2012 team was a top 25 team by the end of the year. They lost 5 games and played in the Big East so they didn't get ranked. http://espn.go.com/blog/ncfnation/post/_/id/74849/3-point-stance-can-chris-ault-stay-away ESPN national writer Ivan Maisel gave us major props. We got votes in the final ESPN top 25 that year. That 2012 team was a top 25. It lost stupid games to Rutgers and Cincinnati. The Big East ref literally stole the Cincinnati game I will never forgive the BE for that screwjob in Cincinnati.

Concur. That was a fantastic year in year 4 of his tenure.

 

[TheCusian]

Just an FYI under DM we beat a ranked team every year. 2009- Rutgers 2010- West Virginia 2011- West Virginia 2012- Louisville I only debate when false narratives are stated. The blind defense of SS getting a 4th year drives me nuts. We need wins if we don't get another win this year their shouldn't be a debate.

I don't think you're too far off actually. Could be 0 more or 1 more. That's why I stated it as an option in the OP with repeated mentions of nothing being guaranteed.

 

[TheCusian]

2011 we were killed with injuries. You allow the injury excuse for last year but forget 2011. We started that 5-2 and had a great upset win on national TV in primetime over #11 WVU. Shafer's D? Or Doug Marrone's D? Your defense of SS really is amazing. Honestly it is amazing. Our 2010 offense was 2014 bad? Do you remember this game. YouTube Video

1. I'm glad you and Anomander are allowing for injuries to play a part in understanding w-l. Context matters.
2. I remember 2011. It was a great win vs WVU.
3. It's both, no? It's Shafers in that he was the DC, but Marrone gets credit for the hire and overseeing Shafer as HC.
4. Look at the stats. That 2010 team did nothing until the bowl game. And with that SOS and a better D maybe the 2014 team gets a chance. Remove FSU and Clemson from that year. We were in the game with Duke and NC State until late TO's or punt returns finished us off. Not as crazy as you'd imagine.

It's also a good time to mention I'm not debating that Shafer is a better coach than Marrone was. Just that he deserves another year.

 

[TheCusian]

How soon they forget...or want to forget to spin their narrative.

No. I think you guys are forgetting how bad our offense was for 3/4 of the Marrone era, that the defense carried us those years shouldn't even be a debate the numbers are so out of whack. The defense has been better than the offense in every year of the Marrone/Shafer era except 2012.

Those are the facts.

 

[TheCusian]

The only stats that matter are Wins/Losses...Everything else is irrelevant.. Marrone was 25-25 & Shaf is 13-18...Hopefully we can win this weekend and get some MO going to get to 6 wins...What I don't get is how a majority seems content with the possibility of back to back 3-9 seasons? Are the expectations really that low? I want Syracuse Football to win & be good again where we expect to go to a bowl every year and every so often catch lighting in a bottle and possibly win our division or win 9 or 10 games...i don't think that is too unreasonable? If we do lose out and go 3-9 again we have basically lost all MO that we had in changing the perception of Syracuse Football. Then we are basically looking at yet again another rebuild? Maybe I need to lower my expectations? Sorry for the rant but frustrated...Just want to see the team win & Syracuse Football change the perception of being a laughing stock or national joke...Let's go orange..Let's get this W against Pitt

That's not true. Context matters. If you play Ohio State, Baylor, and Clemson and go 0-3 and another team plays Georgia State, Winthrop, and URI and go 3-0 - who is the better coach?

Or if you're playing your 4th string QB in 5 games and go 1-4 and the other team is playing either starter and goes 4-1 - who is the better coach?

You have to dig deeper to really evaluate. If you stay at the surface, you might miss out on coach Mac or Briles or name the coach that's gotten more time...

I'm frustrated too. So that means deeper evaluation to make sure you're being wise in your next steps. They are important and should be well thought out. Because we want the team to be good again.

 

[TheCusian]

I would take the 2011 offense over last years offense every day of the week. I don't know what the numbers say, but at least there was a chance of scoring in 2011. Last year's offense before Hunt's injury we were accumulator's. They stacked yardage without really doing anything. Post Hunt it wasn't even that.

I agree with you. That offense was a touch better. But that's not saying that much. (I was referring to 2010, the 2011 team was very comparable to the 2013 team with Hunt on offense. The defenses were similar too).

I'm not saying it wasn't bad, I'm saying 2010 wasn't much better. They had a way easier schedule and did what they should: win. Shafer should absolutely be held accountable for the Mcit fiasco demotion and subsequent cratering.

But after 2.5 years was Marrone doing that much better? He was better - but it wasn't by as much as the w-l record suggests.

 

[TheCusian]

Stuff like this doesn't help. Two days ago, Lester said there were no plays under center, besides the kneel down, so which is the truth? 657334591888433156

He said they didn't have it in for that game specifically. They were leery of trying it because they had t run and under center snap exchanges that week.

 

[TheCusian]

What are you talking about? I didn't call anything facts? I said the 2012 was a top 20 team by the end of the year. Maybe not ranking wise, but in real life.

What real life? The one I lived in didn't have that team ranked.

They were very good. But if they wanted to be ranked they should have beaten Rutgers or Cinci.

 

[anomander]

No. I think you guys are forgetting how bad our offense was for 3/4 of the Marrone era, that the defense carried us those years shouldn't even be a debate the numbers are so out of whack. The defense has been better than the offense in every year of the Marrone/Shafer era except 2012.

Those are the facts.

What are facts are two 8 win seasons. Can't spin that. Nothing else really matters.

 

[Alsacs]

I agree with you. That offense was a touch better. But that's not saying that much. (I was referring to 2010, the 2011 team was very comparable to the 2013 team with Hunt on offense. The defenses were similar too).

I'm not saying it wasn't bad, I'm saying 2010 wasn't much better. They had a way easier schedule and did what they should: win. Shafer should absolutely be held accountable for the Mc. . . . it fiasco demotion and subsequent cratering.

But after 2.5 years was Marrone doing that much better? He was better - but it wasn't by as much as the w-l record suggests.

After 2.5 years DM was 16-15. SS is 13-18. We had upset 2 ranked teams and were getting to play #11 WVU at the Dome.
2014 was worse than anything DM ever coached. 2014 was a Gerg year. That doesn't just get wiped away.

 

[Alsacs]

What real life? The one I lived in didn't have that team ranked.

They were very good. But if they wanted to be ranked they should have beaten Rutgers or Cinci.

Stop it. This message just shows you are just as bias as the people ridiculed on this board for being anti-SS.

Do we blame SS's D for that undisciplined late hit on 4th down that lost us the 2012 Northwestern game or does that go to DM?

 

[anomander]

Stop it. This message just shows you are just as bias as the people ridiculed on this board for being anti-SS. Do we blame SS's D for that undisciplined late hit on 4th down that lost us the 2012 Northwestern game or does that go to DM?

Seriously

 

[TheCusian]

What are facts are two 8 win seasons. Nothing else really matters.

Not true. If it were the NFL that argument would make more sense, but even then you're playing different divisions as a crossover.

CFB has so many teams that span from Ohio State to URI that you have to look at SOS if you want to evaluate fairly.

Or - let's put it this way, who would win: the 2010 team with 100+ ranked offense or the 2012 team with 30 something ranked offense?

We treat wins like they are equal and they just aren't. That's why we have a committee to see who gets in the playoff.

 

[anomander]

Not true. If it were the NFL that argument would make more sense, but even then you're playing different divisions as a crossover. CFB has so many teams that span from Ohio State to URI that you have to look at SOS if you want to evaluate fairly. Or - let's put it this way, who would win: the 2010 team with 100+ ranked offense or the 2012 team with 30 something ranked offense? We treat wins like they are equal and they just aren't. That's why we have a committee to see who gets in the playoff.

Oh really I'll wait for you to recite out SOS for the 11-0-1 team

Nobody remembers the SOS but they remember 11 wins

 

[qdawgg]

What are facts are two 8 win seasons. Can't spin that. Nothing else really matters.

Context. Those 8 wins don't count in either year. The schedule was easier, guys were healthier, Marrone didn't have Dungey, Marrone had a genius defensive coach named Shafer and Shafer the current HC doesn't have a guy like that, Marrone was using Shafers recruits... oh wait, that doesn't work, Shafer wasn't allowed to recruit supposedly, Marrone had really good recruits... oh wait, his recruits sucked. This is kind of hard. I'm not really sure why 8 wins don't count in the same way that only 3 wins don't mean we suck.

 

[qdawgg]

No. I think you guys are forgetting how bad our offense was for 3/4 of the Marrone era,

WHOA... WAIT A SECOND. Context matters I thought.
- Marrone was a terrible recruiter and his first year literally had 2 months to recruit his class. He was signing kids off the local flag football pom pom league. Then they were on the team for 3 - 4 years. You've said yourself that our current recruits are better than Marrones BUT we can't win more than 3 games because those players need time to develop. Context.
- Hackett had never been an OC before, Marrone never was either. Context.

Etc, Etc, Etc.

 

[rrlbees]

Some of these threads are taking on a life like politics. It's the few on the far left vs the few on the far right and both get annoying after awhile. The intelligent conversation is between those somewhere in the middle.,

 

[TheCusian]

Oh really I'll wait for you to recite out SOS for the 11-0-1 team Nobody remembers the SOS but they remember 11 wins

That's true of fans. But if you're talking about ADs hiring and firing? They'd better dig deeper.

 

[Alsacs]

Some of these threads are taking on a life like politics. It's the few on the far left vs the few on the far right and both get annoying after awhile. The intelligent conversation is between those somewhere in the middle.,

Very fair take. My position is obviously known. However I bring support to what I believe. I also try to be fair but I lose it when false narratives are used. I realize my position isn't necessarily right but your right it is like politics team red vs. team blue.

 

[TheCusian]

WHOA... WAIT A SECOND. Context matters I thought. - Marrone was a terrible recruiter and his first year literally had 2 months to recruit his class. He was signing kids off the local flag football pom pom league. Then they were on the team for 3 - 4 years. You've said yourself that our current recruits are better than Marrones BUT we can't win more than 3 games because those players need time to develop. Context. - Hackett had never been an OC before, Marrone never was either. Context. Etc, Etc, Etc.

True. That's why Marrone deserved more than 3 seasons.

 

[TheCusian]

Stop it. This message just shows you are just as bias as the people ridiculed on this board for being anti-SS. Do we blame SS's D for that undisciplined late hit on 4th down that lost us the 2012 Northwestern game or does that go to DM?

Both? Like I said in the OP?

 

[anomander]

True. That's why Marrone deserved more than 3 seasons.

Deserved more then 3 seasons? Jeez I hope so after two 8 win seasons that included bowl wins vs other P5 programs. I'd be the first one lining up for a huge extension if that's what Shafer was doing.

 

[TheCusian]

After 2.5 years DM was 16-15. SS is 13-18. We had upset 2 ranked teams and were getting to play #11 WVU at the Dome. 2014 was worse than anything DM ever coached. 2014 was a Gerg year. That doesn't just get wiped away.

SOS in 2010: 105
SOS in 2014: 26

2010 OOC: Akron, Colgate (FCS), Maine (FCS), Washington
2014 OOC: Villanova, CMU, Maryland, #8 Notre Dame

2010 Ranked teams: WVU
2014 Ranked teams: ND, FSU, Clemson

2010 starting QB: Nassib 13 games
2015 starting QB: Hunt 6 games

I think the +3 games for Marrone is not all that impressive in his first 2.5 years given the stats above. He deserves credit for his upsets over ranked opponents. That's a major check mark vs Shafer.