The Case for Giving Shafer More Time

[HeaterCuse22]

Same could be said about all of us quite frankly. Coyle and Syverud could decide they want to pick their own HC and there might not be a damn thing anyone else can do about it.

I presume though that both of those gentlemen are bigger spectrum type guys. Based on what we can tell about them.

Academics and Off Field matter to them I would think also. (At least in short term)

 

[HeaterCuse22]

I would doubt the $$ question as well. But as for point 1, I think it's dangerous playing shoulda-woulda-coulda with this stuff. The bottom line to me is that we haven't really beaten anyone with Shafer at the helm that you can hang your hat on. That makes me a bit skeptical that a year or two years makes that big of a difference. I don't know that we need to get that much better, but I worry a bit about our ability to cover that ground with this staff. Getting significantly better from a GRob team to a legit football team is actually an easier leap to make, IMO, than going from a relatively competitive team, to a team that's actually at least in the discussion for a division title in the ACC.

Since we play in the division with FSU and Clemson I think that's a fairly HIGH bar. Not that it shouldn't be the goal. Everyone keeps saying what "they see" with Shafer. I just am curious what the skill set of all of these people are. What is your resume as it pertains to football and evaluating coaching or player acumen? Again I am just curious.

 

[Full_Rebar]

I presume though that both of those gentlemen are bigger spectrum type guys. Based on what we can tell about them.

Academics and Off Field matter to them I would think also. (At least in short term)

Those things matter, but you know what isn't going to help, if there are close to 20k empty seats tomorrow. The team GPA isn't paying for the football budget.

 

[HeaterCuse22]

I believe Finwad32 is at minimum a high level HS coach. So I will take his opinion or others with similar backgrounds to tell me: Can you expand on this notion that Shafer is (and Im pulling from other posts/posters) Not intelligent enough to be a Football Coach and/or his "in Game" Decision making is abhorrent enough to warrant talk of being relieved of his duties or at minimum get the team to move forward.

What I can do or Not understand at ll is "Joe Acountant Alumni" that wants to pretend because he/she watches a lot of football, had a kid that played or plays Madden he/she knows Shite about coaching football at a high level.

 

[HeaterCuse22]

Those things matter, but you know what isn't going to help, if there are close to 20k empty seats tomorrow. The team GPA isn't paying for the football budget.

Also not paying for another coach.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

Ill bite.
1.
But how far away really is the team now with any deficiency that can be identified. Ill take out LSU Game (its a non starter - we played up they played down). USF was a game where we struggled in the first half first trip out. I think that's expected. We started to fight back then got burned by bad penalties and then it snowballed a bit. UVA IMO was literally 3-4 plays that could have made that a 3 TD Game in our favor. So that close and then we are 4-2 maybe 5-1. Just saying How much better do they need to get. I don think the bar is so far out of reach that its not plausible that we could make a large leap next year (record wise) and product wise.

Generally I see what you are saying though.

2.
I doubt it . But I have been surprised before.

The problem is that USF & UVA are bad teams. You shouldn't get a cookie for almost beating bad teams. If they were Pitt & Louisville instead we would all be doing backflips.

Shafer needs to show he can beat a team in the top half of FBS (Top 64). He hasn't been able to do that thus far. If we don't win one of the next 4 games then we should seriously question his coaching abilities. Even bad teams pull off upsets every once in a while (including GRob).

 

[Millhouse]

The problem is that USF & UVA are bad teams. You shouldn't get a cookie for almost beating bad teams. If they were Pitt & Louisville instead we would all be doing backflips.

Shafer needs to show he can beat a team in the top half of FBS (Top 64). He hasn't been able to do that thus far. If we don't win one of the next 4 games then we should seriously question his coaching abilities. Even bad teams pull off upsets every once in a while (including GRob).

you can't beat anyone good with the pre-dungey passers they had. they were all terrible passers. now that he has his passer, they are wasting too many plays on goofy bs. but even if they stop doing that, they're still going to lose to top half teams who will just pick on whigham. every year, shafer gets to skate because the reasons for never beating anyone good are so concentrated in one position and it's easy to talk yourself into one horrible position being easy to fix.

if you're not inclined to get rid of the guy, it's easy to say "well the stuff that killed us isn't predictive"

(i think his confusion about what to do on offense is predictive)

 

[Crusty]

Coyle will settle all of this at the end of the season. He can fire Shafer, do nothing except make a few bland statements of support or give him a short extension. Probably the middle choice.

If he stays next year will be determinative. I can wait.

 

[HeaterCuse22]

you can't beat anyone good with the pre-dungey passers they had. they were all terrible passers. now that he has his passer, they are wasting too many plays on goofy bs. but even if they stop doing that, they're still going to lose to top half teams who will just pick on whigham. every year, shafer gets to skate because the reasons for never beating anyone good are so concentrated in one position and it's easy to talk yourself into one horrible position being easy to fix.

if you're not inclined to get rid of the guy, it's easy to say "well the stuff that killed us isn't predictive"

(i think his confusion about what to do on offense is predictive)

I think play calling can and should get better over time considering A. its a new system and B. the youth we have.

On D. Whigham not getting better must also be know that he had a major medical event. We have missed on a couple high level CB (NOT QUALIFIED) and I do believe that the one coach that seems to not change the technique he is coaching is Reed. So I would support a move to someone else there.

 

[Jack_Ball]

Yes but what you aren't saying is - Marrone gutted staff. Left at worst possible time. You yourself say the offense seems to be trending up now that LEster is in place or so it seems and we have an outlier defensive year. So we are ready to axe shafer based on an outlier year that is normally his strength?

Just trying to understand.

All I advocate. Is give shafer 2016 and into 2017. If by midway through 2017 there is no discernible improvement to defense and sustained offensive output- make the switch. Allow the staff current or new to turn it around or at least begin/keep recruiting. I am willing to give that much.


EDIT I just realized you actually think after next year is ok. That's closer to a realistic timeline in my opinion.

So you are content with Syracuse Football missing a bowl 2 years in a row and posting back to back 3-9 seasons? Are expectations for the program really that low?

 

[billsin01]

Since we play in the division with FSU and Clemson I think that's a fairly HIGH bar. Not that it shouldn't be the goal. Everyone keeps saying what "they see" with Shafer. I just am curious what the skill set of all of these people are. What is your resume as it pertains to football and evaluating coaching or player acumen? Again I am just curious.

I have zero resume -- I'm just an idiot fan on a message board. Although I'd argue that people who think they have a resume are a bit more dangerous. But regardless, I just don't know what anyone would have seen that makes them think, beyond reasonable doubt, that Shafer is clearly the man for the job. I'm not rushing to drop the ax on Shafer and co., but I'm not sure I've seen anything that makes me think we're all posting about how lucky we are to have him by 2017 or 2018.

The point about FSU and Clemson is a good one and certainly something to consider. There is the very real possibility that we won't ever field a team -- or certainly could have a real issue fielding a team that is going to go toe-to-toe with the FSU's and Clemson's. If that is, in fact the reality, then it absolutely changes the equation for Shafer and co. Then what we're talking about is a team that generally sits at 6 wins, maybe 7, and occasionally makes a run at 9. If that's our legit ceiling -- and, again, it may well be -- then I think Shafer is probably fine.

 

[HeaterCuse22]

So you are content with Syracuse Football missing a bowl 2 years in a row and posting back to back 3-9 seasons? Are expectations for the program really that low?

I am a fan. I expect them to win every game. That being said, I am objective.

 

[HeaterCuse22]

I have zero resume -- I'm just an idiot fan on a message board. Although I'd argue that people who think they have a resume are a bit more dangerous. But regardless, I just don't know what anyone would have seen that makes them think, beyond reasonable doubt, that Shafer is clearly the man for the job. I'm not rushing to drop the ax on Shafer and co., but I'm not sure I've seen anything that makes me think we're all posting about how lucky we are to have him by 2017 or 2018.

The point about FSU and Clemson is a good one and certainly something to consider. There is the very real possibility that we won't ever field a team -- or certainly could have a real issue fielding a team that is going to go toe-to-toe with the FSU's and Clemson's. If that is, in fact the reality, then it absolutely changes the equation for Shafer and co. Then what we're talking about is a team that generally sits at 6 wins, maybe 7, and occasionally makes a run at 9. If that's our legit ceiling -- and, again, it may well be -- then I think Shafer is probably fine.

Thank you for understanding that I wasn't calling you out. I think our immediate ceiling is a 6-9 win team. Who maybe on occasion can beat a Clemson or FSU. With the players we are getting and some consistency if staff and system.

I also believe that our record with Marrone over the last three years would have been the same or worse, because he wouldn't have been able to secure the recruits to be competitive in the ACC.

 

[Jack_Ball]

I am a fan. I expect them to win every game. That being said, I am objective.

I don't think that's being objective to blindly give Shaf 2 more years regardless of the outcome? As I've said before, I pray we win Saturday and can rattle of a few more wins where all this talk what matter but if for some reason we don't win another game that puts us right back to where we were pre marrone (at least perception wise)...Can't think of too many P5 teams that we are better than after back to back 3-9 seasons...It basically becomes a total rebuild again

 

[HeaterCuse22]

I don't think that's being objective to blindly give Shaf 2 more years regardless of the outcome? As I've said before, I pray we win Saturday and can rattle of a few more wins where all this talk what matter but if for some reason we don't win another game that puts us right back to where we were pre marrone (at least perception wise)...Can't think of too many P5 teams that we are better than after back to back 3-9 seasons...It basically becomes a total rebuild again

Show me where I said Blindly give him two more seasons regardless of outcome.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

BTW exhibit A of why coaching matters is Mike London. UVA has plenty of talent to compete in the ACC yet he has gone 12-30. They play in the ACC Coastal so they don't have FSU & Clemson every year. He is averaging a 2-6 record which is kind of hard to do.

 

[orange7]

Can we argue that Freshman Fredericks and Sophmore Erv and Ish are better than Freshman Jerome Smith and Sophmore Alec lemon and Jerrod West

I will play devil's advocate here--Freshman Fredericks and Sophomore Erv and Ish are better than Freshman Jerome Smith and Sophmore Alec lemon and Jerrod West; however, I do not trust that SS can coach up these guys more than Marrone could.

 

[Jack_Ball]

Show me where I said Blindly give him two more seasons regardless of outcome.

The 1st post i responded too...

All I advocate. Is give shafer 2016 and into 2017. If by midway through 2017 there is no discernible improvement to defense and sustained offensive output- make the switch. Allow the staff current or new to turn it around or at least begin/keep recruiting. I am willing to give that much.


Like I said, I hope this is all just fan talk and a waist of time because we end up going 6-6 or 5-7 but if we go 3-9 2 years in a row then I think we need to try something else...

 

[HeaterCuse22]

I will play devil's advocate here--Freshman Fredericks and Sophomore Erv and Ish are better than Freshman Jerome Smith and Sophmore Alec lemon and Jerrod West; however, I do not trust that SS can coach up these guys more than Marrone could.

Ill bite. Based on what?

 

[TheCusian]

you can't beat anyone good with the pre-dungey passers they had. they were all terrible passers. now that he has his passer, they are wasting too many plays on goofy bs. but even if they stop doing that, they're still going to lose to top half teams who will just pick on whigham. every year, shafer gets to skate because the reasons for never beating anyone good are so concentrated in one position and it's easy to talk yourself into one horrible position being easy to fix.

if you're not inclined to get rid of the guy, it's easy to say "well the stuff that killed us isn't predictive"

(i think his confusion about what to do on offense is predictive)

No. The problem with this is the assumption that a decision is never made. I think if this season is 3-9, you'd see either a new coach or 1 more year. If there isn't a jump, you move on.

 

[HeaterCuse22]

The 1st post i responded too...

All I advocate. Is give shafer 2016 and into 2017. If by midway through 2017 there is no discernible improvement to defense and sustained offensive output- make the switch. Allow the staff current or new to turn it around or at least begin/keep recruiting. I am willing to give that much.


Like I said, I hope this is all just fan talk and a waist of time because we end up going 6-6 or 5-7 but if we go 3-9 2 years in a row then I think we need to try something else...

I said 1 season. And a min of a half a season.

 

[Alsacs]

You said they are bad teams. USF took Memphis to the wire, the same Memphis team that Smoked Ole Miss. UVA has played the hardest schedule or one of in the nation. Im not willing to conced they are bad, nor am I willing to concede we are bad.

Plus you are obviously a flaming troll that just tries to get your points in without looking at objectivity.

UVA is a bad football team. I don't get how that is debatable. They will not be going bowling and if they win another game this year I will be shocked.

They could beat VPI at home but I don't see them as a good team. Their coach has killed their fanbase.

USF is mediocre. They aren't a good team. Their offense had 6 possessions in the 2nd half and scored 5 TDs and fumbled on the 6th.

Objectivity? Is what? Looking at our record thru 2.5 years and seeing 1 win against team that won 8 games (2013 Minnesota). Losing to USF and UVA was a killer for this season. Most people had us 4-2 thru 6 games we are 3-3 who does that fall on?

 

[HeaterCuse22]

UVA is a bad football team. I don't get how that is debatable. They will not be going bowling and if they win another game this year I will be shocked.

They could beat VPI at home but I don't see them as a good team. Their coach has killed their fanbase.

USF is mediocre. They aren't a good team. Their offense had 6 possessions in the 2nd half and scored 5 TDs and fumbled on the 6th.

Objectivity? Is what? Looking at our record thru 2.5 years and seeing 1 win against team that won 8 games (2013 Minnesota). Losing to USF and UVA was a killer for this season. Most people had us 4-2 thru 6 games we are 3-3 who does that fall on?[/QUOTE]

So we are one game off the general consensus. Umm.

 

[TheCusian]

So you are content with Syracuse Football missing a bowl 2 years in a row and posting back to back 3-9 seasons? Are expectations for the program really that low?

Look. Precedent shows that the puts him on the edge. But A.) It's not happened yet and B.) There are more factors than w-l. It might be the biggest marble in the pot - but it's not the only one. If you think Coyle is that kind of AD, we might be in more trouble than we know.

 

[TheCusian]

UVA is a bad football team. I don't get how that is debatable. They will not be going bowling and if they win another game this year I will be shocked.

They could beat VPI at home but I don't see them as a good team. Their coach has killed their fanbase.

USF is mediocre. They aren't a good team. Their offense had 6 possessions in the 2nd half and scored 5 TDs and fumbled on the 6th.

Objectivity? Is what? Looking at our record thru 2.5 years and seeing 1 win against team that won 8 games (2013 Minnesota). Losing to USF and UVA was a killer for this season. Most people had us 4-2 thru 6 games we are 3-3 who does that fall on?

That 8 win mark is fun. Why'd you pick it?