The problem is not the talent

[OrangePA]

I like SS personally but that interview was awful. I wish the guy gave more confidence. I am being to realize I owe Doug Marrone an apology. I didn't realize how tough he had it. Thank goodness we had Nassib, Lemon, Pugh, Chandler and Arthur Jones play for Doug Marrone. We were mediocre but Marrone prepared the team well each week.
Doug saw the writing on the wall with Gross/SU paying for big time football and bailed when he realized how tough the job was. I never criticized DM for leaving for the NFL but I really think he left because of SU's lack of commitment. I am sorry for criticizing you after the Minnesota 2012 game Doug Marrone.
Syracuse needs to accept being a stepping stone job and hire the best coach it can in the future. If SU is just happy cashing checks SS gets 2 more years if I was running the AD next year is make or break.
We have enough talent to win 6 or 7 games this year.

I agree that Doug Marrone left in part because of a perceived insufficient commitment to the program by the administration.

His decision was multi-factorial, but that was a part of it.

And, he was a great HC for the Orange.

 

[Chip]

Shafer and co just scream low rate coaching staff to me. Everything about them feels small time and the interview with Shafer about going for the "under the radar" types created an impression I'm rooting for a miracle to win any games.

I just don't like his hot headed, scrappy style. Shafer makes me feel like we're a team who has been picked on and are trying to stand up to the bullies but we just keep getting beat up.

I really hated that interview as well. I get that there's a certain reality in it, but come on. It sounded like he was making a huge excuse for himself, and just makes the program, who is a proud, card carrying member of the P5, look insecure and second tier. Go big or go home.

 

[CuseOnly]

True.

The game, in essence, was lost in a split second yesterday because of the extraordinary talent of Pharoah McKeever.

As a DE, he dropped into coverage - made a solid INT and ran like a WR 82 yards for the winning score.

That was a talent issue.

And ultimately wins and losses come down to talent.

Reddish drops a sure INT. Kirkland fails to cover a sure fumble recovery. Moore drops a great slant throw by Long. West drops a tough but catchable streak throw by Long.

Players - the talent - have to make the plays to win the game.

Our players failed repeatedly to make the plays.

Are there coaching issues? Probably. But that's not why we lost the game yesterday.

I seem to remember Welsh making pretty much the same play a few weeks ago.

So you are saying that dropping a "sure interception" and failing to cover a fumble are talent issues? First- Nothing is "sure" as you suggest. Second - Neither of those are talent, they are coaching and discipline/coaching.

Dropping passes is a talent issue?

I disagree, both are coaching.

 

[CuseOnly]

I agree that Doug Marrone left in part because of a perceived insufficient commitment to the program by the administration.

His decision was multi-factorial, but that was a part of it.

And, he was a great HC for the Orange.

I don't think that there is anything "perceived" about the insufficient commitment to the program from the administration.

I think it is a blatant insufficient commitment to the program that can easily be seen by all involved. The worst part is the fact that everyone can see it.

Marrone had plenty of options better than coaching st SU, Shafer did not at the time so he went with his best option and took the HC job for 1.2 mil. Marrone had leverage, Shafer did not and still doesn't.

 

[longislandcuse]

It blows my mind that Syracuse, with the tradition, brand and history we have, could neglect the football program. It's clear they're doing such, I'm not debating that, I'm just in shock that in the climate we're in, with all the football $$$ and recognition, that a school like Syracuse would neglect ****ng football. It's sickening.

 

[orangencpolice]

While we would all love more talent in the program that loss is on coaching. I feel outside of Bobby Acosta I wish we could have a complete new offensive coaching staff. Acosta has shown recruiting chops in NJ thus he should remain. McDonald had potential to be a recruiter but that bridge was burned after he got demoted. Lester is nothing special , Joe Adam hasn't shown me anything. Look Shafer is not going anywhere even though my opinion is made on him but last year gives him next year to improve.
Fool me one shame on you fool me twice shame on me. The program makes the same freaking mistakes week after week year after year. I get we had injuries but our coaching staff on offense compared to the average D-1 football team looks HORRIBLE. Coaching offense in college football is not hard and every week its always a struggle for Syracuse(outside of the 2nd half of the 2012 season)
Dr. Gross needs to give Shafer some $$$ for this coaching staff or next year will be no different.

I agree to some extent but the offensive line is riddled with injuries. Not making excuses, but I saw missed blocks by Lasker and Emerich that got Long drilled. The plays were so bad that both players were chasing after the defensive player, just before they sacked Long. Too many missed assignments on the Offensive line for our offense to be productive. I hope our recruiting of the players for 2015 still want to be a part of the program. Or at least the majority.

 

[Statesman1]

Why did we have those athletes?We weren't getting them before the dome/Coach Mac combo.

Agreed- the Dome, Mac, getting Tim Green to stay and open the flood gate to recruiting were all huge factors. Luck had absolutely nothing to do with it. We had good to great teams for over a nice ten year run.

 

[OrangePA]

I seem to remember Welsh making pretty much the same play a few weeks ago.

So you are saying that dropping a "sure interception" and failing to cover a fumble are talent issues? First- Nothing is "sure" as you suggest. Second - Neither of those are talent, they are coaching and discipline/coaching.

Dropping passes is a talent issue?

I disagree, both are coaching.

I can't blame Desir's dropped INT on the coaches. He dropped the ball. Kendal Moore dropped the ball. West failed to make a play - admittedly a tough play.

But great talent makes the play when it has to be made.

The Kirkland fumble recovery is of course a different issue.

Do you pick up the ball and be the ultimate hero? Or do you just drop on it?

To me it's a decision that has to be made on the field. And I say that because there are times when the right decision is to pick up the ball. As a coach I think it's hard to impose a bright line rule in that situation. Would I have preferred the bright line rule - just drop on it - at that point? Obviously now, the answer is yes.

But I also have to think about other instances where this defense has run and scored with a fumble.

So, that one is hard for me/.

 

[AZOrange]

I like SS but hated, and I mean hated, that interview. We look for guys that no one else wants? Yeah, because we are so much better at both discovering talent and developing talent. Complete B.S.. It says to me that we are afraid to go after big time talent. Maybe they know they can't get them. But if that is true, why have a team?

Couldn't agree more.

 

[AZOrange]

Why does everyone always want to look for one magic bullet root cause?

The issues are multi-dimensional. And talent absolutely, certainly is one of the issues hamstringing this team. So is coaching. So is depth. So is a tough, unfavorable schedule. So is the injury bug. So is inexperience at QB. So is the patchwork OL. So is the tendency to shoot ourselves in the foot at key times. So is the lack of offensive production.

It doesn't matter how many times people want to repeat the "its not the talent" mantra--repeating something that is false doesn't make it true. Anyone who watches college football beyond the cozy amniotic sack of SU / the ACC can recognize that right now, our team lacks talent compared to even bottom end top 25 teams. Period. End of sentence. I'm all for diversity of opinion, as this is a message board, but I'm at a loss to see how anyone can view or team [especially on offense] and legitimately believe / assert that lack of talent is not an issue.

Agreed. But anyone impressed with the current talent isn't watching that closely or watching other teams as well.

 

[ClkWrkOrange]

Social media also wasn't turning every kid into a Prima Donna and telling them they are above going to Syracuse. We as a program also did not poop the bed on national/large regional TV 2-3 times a year.

Things have changed and SU over the past 20 years has not changed with them. We are still in a huge hole that we are still trying to did out of. Perception of the Program has to change before we are completely out of the hole. The IPF will not change the public's and recruits perception but it will help. The only thing that will truly change how SU Football is viewed is wins.

I agree with you .The whole we are in is the result of the very lack of commitment the post I was responding to was bringing up.My point was that it hasn't been 15 years,it has been for forever.Everything you said beyond your first sentence is the result of that lack of commitment.

I have no idea what Statesman's point is.The talent we had was the result of the luck I was referring to.He's using it as a proof it wasn't luck?

 

[OrangePA]

I really hated that interview as well. I get that there's a certain reality in it, but come on. It sounded like he was making a huge excuse for himself, and just makes the program, who is a proud, card carrying member of the P5, look insecure and second tier. Go big or go home.

I have winced when Scott has suggested at times that the Program is unable to attract great talent or that our target kid must be an under the radar kid.

Recruiting remains a challenge for the Program for various reasons, but it is not an impossible task at this stage to attract big time talent and there is no need to present the Program as anything less than a top tier program.

With ACC money and improved but not yet perfected infrastructure, we should aim for the stars and should present ourselves in that fashion.

 

[OrangePA]

I don't think that there is anything "perceived" about the insufficient commitment to the program from the administration.

I think it is a blatant insufficient commitment to the program that can easily be seen by all involved. The worst part is the fact that everyone can see it.

Marrone had plenty of options better than coaching st SU, Shafer did not at the time so he went with his best option and took the HC job for 1.2 mil. Marrone had leverage, Shafer did not and still doesn't.

Well, with the IPF, things have gotten better.

I agree that there is much to do.

 

[Crusty]

It is all about the QB. A team with a top level QB makes everybody else better. Without that, a team is just mediocre. You don't have to look back farther than Nassib.

The QB we need does not appear to be in school at the moment.

 

[ClkWrkOrange]

Agreed- the Dome, Mac, getting Tim Green to stay and open the flood gate to recruiting were all huge factors. Luck had absolutely nothing to do with it. We had good to great teams for over a nice ten year run.

You don't think Coach Mac was a lucky hire?What in his resume prior to coming here screamed sure fire success?Our governor deciding to build a private university a brand new stadium with tax payer $ wasn't pretty damned lucky?The school was doing NOTHING for their own football program at the time and has done very little since until very recently.

 

[RF2044]

It is all about the QB. A team with a top level QB makes everybody else better. Without that, a team is just mediocre. You don't have to look back farther than Nassib.

The QB we need does not appear to be in school at the moment.

This is going to be unpopular, because Long made two critical mistakes that essentially led to 14 NCS points that were the difference in the game, but I liked what I saw otherwise in the second half. Playing behind a patchwork offensive line that was a sieve--probably directly led to some of the mistakes.

Season is basically over at this point, but I'm curious to see more of what Long can do. I think he showed enough yesterday in the 2nd half to demonstrate that he MIGHT be the guy, with a little more seasoning and strength and some improved experiential judgement.

 

[Statesman1]

True.

The game, in essence, was lost in a split second yesterday because of the extraordinary talent of Pharoah McKeever.

As a DE, he dropped into coverage - made a solid INT and ran like a WR 82 yards for the winning score.

That was a talent issue.

And ultimately wins and losses come down to talent.

Reddish drops a sure INT. Kirkland fails to cover a sure fumble recovery. Moore drops a great slant throw by Long. West drops a tough but catchable streak throw by Long.

Players - the talent - have to make the plays to win the game.

Our players failed repeatedly to make the plays.

Are there coaching issues? Probably. But that's not why we lost the game yesterday.

I agree with you .The whole we are in is the result of the very lack of commitment the post I was responding to was bringing up.My point was that it hasn't been 15 years,it has been for forever.Everything you said beyond your first sentence is the result of that lack of commitment.

I have no idea what Statesman's point is.The talent we had was the result of the luck I was referring to.He's using it as a proof it wasn't luck?

How was building the Dome luck? How was getting Coach Mac luck? How was getting

You don't think Coach Mac was a lucky hire?What in his resume prior to coming here screamed sure fire success?Our governor deciding to build a private university a brand new stadium with tax payer $ wasn't pretty damned lucky?The school was doing NOTHING for their own football program at the time and has done very little since until very recently.

Right, the school was just minding their own business when the state dropped the dome in their lap. That's not how politics works or $ gets spent. You're right, Mack turned out great, but somebody had to make the decision to hire him. By your logic, GRob was just an unlucky hire. Tim Green didn't just wake up and commit, just as all the talent that followed didn't either. You'll get no argument from me on the general lack of commitment to the program on SU in general, but none of these events occurred solely because of luck.

 

[Toga]

I can't blame Desir's dropped INT on the coaches. He dropped the ball. Kendal Moore dropped the ball. West failed to make a play - admittedly a tough play.

But great talent makes the play when it has to be made.

The Kirkland fumble recovery is of course a different issue.

Do you pick up the ball and be the ultimate hero? Or do you just drop on it?

To me it's a decision that has to be made on the field. And I say that because there are times when the right decision is to pick up the ball. As a coach I think it's hard to impose a bright line rule in that situation. Would I have preferred the bright line rule - just drop on it - at that point? Obviously now, the answer is yes.

But I also have to think about other instances where this defense has run and scored with a fumble.

So, that one is hard for me/.

Yeah it's a fine line to some degree but I think players are taught to cover it. Now if you are down inside the 10 yard line seems to me the risk reward dictates you just cover it.

 

[rrlbees]

West failed to make a play - admittedly a tough play.

But great talent makes the play when it has to be made.

Here's the deal though. West made other great plays when they had to be made. But even great talent doesn't make every play.

 

[MikeSU02]

I can't blame Desir's dropped INT on the coaches. He dropped the ball. Kendal Moore dropped the ball. West failed to make a play - admittedly a tough play.

But great talent makes the play when it has to be made.

The Kirkland fumble recovery is of course a different issue.

Do you pick up the ball and be the ultimate hero? Or do you just drop on it?

To me it's a decision that has to be made on the field. And I say that because there are times when the right decision is to pick up the ball. As a coach I think it's hard to impose a bright line rule in that situation. Would I have preferred the bright line rule - just drop on it - at that point? Obviously now, the answer is yes.

But I also have to think about other instances where this defense has run and scored with a fumble.

So, that one is hard for me/.

I agree with you in this instance OPA. The INT that AJ threw was killer, but I bet he doesn't throw it next year.

I bet West makes that catch at least 50% of the time and it just wasn't there today.

I think the guys on D are coached well, I just don't think we have enough elite level guys to be the guys that make that one extra play. With that said, I can't wait to see how Zaire develops.

On offense, we have a second team OL, a true frosh QB and a new OC running a hybrid offense that really isn't his.

Like I said in another post. I like the core talent, I think they just need time to grow. Keep the core in tact and if in two years we aren't beating down the NC States of the world, then we need to change it up.

But I think we are on a good track. I think we'll look back fondly on this year as the year that AJ, Ish, Erv, Zaire, etc were just scratching the surface.

Just want to say one other thing. I doubted West a lot. That kid is making some awesome plays and has a great thing with AJ.

 

[AZOrange]

Yeah it's a fine line to some degree but I think players are taught to cover it. Now if you are down inside the 10 yard line seems to me the risk reward dictates you just cover it.

He was probably concerned about our red zone ineptitude and tried to make the play.

 

[Crusty]

I agree with you in this instance OPA. The INT that AJ threw was killer, but I bet he doesn't throw it next year.

I bet West makes that catch at least 50% of the time and it just wasn't there today.

I think the guys on D are coached well, I just don't think we have enough elite level guys to be the guys that make that one extra play. With that said, I can't wait to see how Zaire develops.

On offense, we have a second team OL, a true frosh QB and a new OC running a hybrid offense that really isn't his.

Like I said in another post. I like the core talent, I think they just need time to grow. Keep the core in tact and if in two years we aren't beating down the NC States of the world, then we need to change it up.

But I think we are on a good track. I think we'll look back fondly on this year as the year that AJ, Ish, Erv, Zaire, etc were just scratching the surface.

Just want to say one other thing. I doubted West a lot. That kid is making some awesome plays and has a great thing with AJ.

I hope you are right.

 

[Crusty]

Here's the deal though. West made other great plays when they had to be made. But even great talent doesn't make every play.

That is absolutely right. Even the best QB's miss receivers and the best running backs fumble and miss holes. The best OC's call dumb plays. Just the nature of sports. West has been a stud this year.

 

[TheCusian]

While we would all love more talent in the program that loss is on coaching. I feel outside of Bobby Acosta I wish we could have a complete new offensive coaching staff. Acosta has shown recruiting chops in NJ thus he should remain. McDonald had potential to be a recruiter but that bridge was burned after he got demoted. Lester is nothing special , Joe Adam hasn't shown me anything. Look Shafer is not going anywhere even though my opinion is made on him but last year gives him next year to improve. Fool me one shame on you fool me twice shame on me. The program makes the same freaking mistakes week after week year after year. I get we had injuries but our coaching staff on offense compared to the average D-1 football team looks HORRIBLE. Coaching offense in college football is not hard and every week its always a struggle for Syracuse(outside of the 2nd half of the 2012 season) Dr. Gross needs to give Shafer some $$$ for this coaching staff or next year will be no different.

Back to axing Adams for no reason, I see.

So dumb. When at full strength we were one of the best teams in the ACC at protecting the QB.

It's not "I get we had injuries" ... That is simply the whole story from yesterday. With our oline at full strength, we win going away. End of story.

 

[Chris02M]

If it is talent then winning 7 games last year was the biggest fluke of all time. We lost Jerome Smith who was a good college RB and improved our WR situation had an entire summer to get better and have regressed to a 3 win program.
Listen I said after the ND game it was 2 star talent vs 4 star talent. Our team doesn't have top 25 talent but we have 7-5 talent and the fact is we are underachieving. Every team in the country could use more talent. I don't think talent is the primary reason our offense looks bad or we will stink for the forseeable future.

schedule was much more favorable last year than this year and should be again favorable next year

 

[Sudano]

I said we could always use more talent so could any team. However, we have a stable of WRs/RBs enough depth at OL to be able to patchwork a unit and a young inexperienced but talented QB.

Its as if you don't watch other football games to compare talent. Teams even in the bottom half of the Top25 have bigger faster, stronger players. Heck we lost to MD and NCState who are no where close to the Top25 and you say our talent level is sufficient. We need to recruit and beat top teams for talent. Period.