Things I've heard...

[moqui]

Another instance in which Boeheim attacked the wrong party and was incorrect. Flynn, Harris, and Devendorf took a scholarship away from walkons by deciding that February was a nice time to stop being students, despite the fact that they were enrolled and enjoying all the privileges that come with a free college education.

of course, the blame ultimately falls on those three, but JB was also correct about problems with the APR. He is not the only one who sees this - in fact, I heard Bilas critiquing the APR on Cowherd this morning.

It's not just the APR, it is the timing of the NBA draft and all the pre-draft workouts. Kids who want to be included in the draft are forced to skip classes at the end of the semester in order to participate. There should be some kind of waiver system for anyone who is in their last semester. If they declare for the draft and attend individual workouts or other camps - and can document it - then the NCAA should waive that semester from APR calculations. To ask a kid to decide between helping out his school or missing out on these workouts for what is in essence an ultra-competitive job application process, is asking too much of them.

 

[OburgCuse]

I have asked this before, but I have not gotten an answer yet

In the past, JB has given the empty scholarship slot to a walk on. We began the year with 12 scholarship players, leaving one open 'ship. Mookie left at the end of the 1st semester, opening up another.

Has JB given these slots to any of the senior walk ons? Resavy was on the All Big East Academic team and Reese has been on the Honor Roll in the past. Give either or both of them a 'ship and it helps the APR, or is that against the rules?

Mike Waters said in chat yesterday that the only walk on currently on scholarship is Reese.

I'm not sure what the rules are in regard to APR, but I'd imagine there are some kind of rules against putting walk ons on scholarship and taking off, etc and being able to count towards APR. I could see there being a rule, though, that if walk-on was placed on scholarship and retained on scholarship until graduated then it could count towards APR (ie. Reese) so I would think he would help, but only guessing.

 

[OttoMets]

I see your point but I disagree. I mean, in an ideal world, yeah these kids would still go to class and at least put forth some moderate effort to get a degree that would help them out later in life. But, realistically, they are all professional basketball players. I guess Harris is looking to play football or something, but he and devendorf could play overseas and flynn has a chance to carve out a 10-year nba career. Their job as far as they are concerned is to put forth enough effort to stay eligible. When they no longer need to stay eligible, there simply isn't much point, in their eyes. And, I'm not sure I blame them. I mean, they should take classes, but they will probably have a better nest egg than I will ever have and can certainly finish up at a later date or get into coaching, etc.

Also, I've got to add that you're presenting a false dilemma. There's nothing inherent in wrapping up the semester that would prevent any of these guys from establishing a nest egg, as you put it. Far from it - Syracuse is in the minority of schools that sit in the APR danger zone, while Kentucky and others keep their soon-to-be NBA millionaires academically eligible.

I'm not saying that Kentucky's system is above-board, but college athletes have been able to balance completing their studies with preparing for the draft for decades; I've never heard of a kid hurting his employment chances by closing out his semester.

 

[moqui]

Devo? He graduated didnt he?

I'm not sure he did . . . he was on track to graduate, but he left school early to participate in workouts. If he later completed those courses and graduated, it didn't matter in the APR calculations. His final semester on scholarship was calculated as a failure.

 

[HoustonCuse]

I see your point but I disagree. I mean, in an ideal world, yeah these kids would still go to class and at least put forth some moderate effort to get a degree that would help them out later in life. But, realistically, they are all professional basketball players. I guess Harris is looking to play football or something, but he and devendorf could play overseas and flynn has a chance to carve out a 10-year nba career. Their job as far as they are concerned is to put forth enough effort to stay eligible. When they no longer need to stay eligible, there simply isn't much point, in their eyes. And, I'm not sure I blame them. I mean, they should take classes, but they will probably have a better nest egg than I will ever have and can certainly finish up at a later date or get into coaching, etc.

I, likewise, see your point and disagree. What about living up to your responsibilities and commitments? What about doing the right thing? You can say they are exploited by the school, and etc because they aren't paid and they generate revenue, but the student-athlete relationship is a win-win for them. They get invaluable instruction, experience against top-flight competition, exposure to the national media and NBA scouts, support and training in terms of physical conditioning, nutrition, media relations, and many other areas. In return for this they are expected to help the team win games, to stay eligible, and to not harm the program or university in any way. Just bailing on the classwork and thus directly impacting the health of the program is clearly a violation of all aspects of their commitment to the university.

All arguments about getting to the NBA, providing for families, "why would they do anything except focus on that goal," etc are bogus. Read the Scoop Jardine article in the PS. He would have been MUCH better off in terms of providing for his family if he had been a drug dealer for the past four years. Should he have done that? I think we all agree, no.

 

[OttoMets]

of course, the blame ultimately falls on those three, but JB was also correct about problems with the APR. He is not the only one who sees this - in fact, I heard Bilas critiquing the APR on Cowherd this morning.

It's not just the APR, it is the timing of the NBA draft and all the pre-draft workouts. Kids who want to be included in the draft are forced to skip classes at the end of the semester in order to participate. There should be some kind of waiver system for anyone who is in their last semester. If they declare for the draft and attend individual workouts or other camps - and can document it - then the NCAA should waive that semester from APR calculations. To ask a kid to decide between helping out his school or missing out on these workouts for what is in essence an ultra-competitive job application process, is asking too much of them.

I think that the two should be able to coexist (I remember asking an English literature professor to move up my final exam because I'd been offered an interview that conflicted with her scheduled time).

Certainly there's some way the NBA teams can respect the athletes' real academic responsibilities or the schools can structure coursework around the draft workout schedule (after all, schools have staggered classes and exams around the 31-game season for the past several months).

 

[OttoMets]

I, likewise, see your point and disagree. What about living up to your responsibilities and commitments? What about doing the right thing? You can say they are exploited by the school, and etc because they aren't paid and they generate revenue, but the student-athlete relationship is a win-win for them. They get invaluable instruction, experience against top-flight competition, exposure to the national media and NBA scouts, support and training in terms of physical conditioning, nutrition, media relations, and many other areas. In return for this they are expected to help the team win games, to stay eligible, and to not harm the program or university in any way. Just bailing on the classwork and thus directly impacting the health of the program is clearly a violation of all aspects of their commitment to the university.

All arguments about getting to the NBA, providing for families, "why would they do anything except focus on that goal," etc are bogus. Read the Scoop Jardine article in the PS. He would have been MUCH better off in terms of providing for his family if he had been a drug dealer for the past four years. Should he have done that? I think we all agree, no.

Yes. A better-articulated statement of what I'm getting at.

 

[Calcuse]

okay, third times a charm. 165 dollars a year.

Plus tax!

 

[pfister1]

The APR just brings into focus what a messy clusterfock professional athletics, err ....amateur college athletics is...

In reality if you want NCAA athletics to be about student athletes then the NCAA should step up and establish an appropriate example rather than trying to milk every red cent they can out of it.

 

[AZOrange]

I'm not sure he did . . . he was on track to graduate, but he left school early to participate in workouts. If he later completed those courses and graduated, it didn't matter in the APR calculations. His final semester on scholarship was calculated as a failure.

I seem to recall an interview he gave where he said he was going to graduate and that was why he was leaving.

 

[OttoMets]

I see your point but I disagree. I mean, in an ideal world, yeah these kids would still go to class and at least put forth some moderate effort to get a degree that would help them out later in life. But, realistically, they are all professional basketball players. I guess Harris is looking to play football or something, but he and devendorf could play overseas and flynn has a chance to carve out a 10-year nba career. Their job as far as they are concerned is to put forth enough effort to stay eligible. When they no longer need to stay eligible, there simply isn't much point, in their eyes. And, I'm not sure I blame them. I mean, they should take classes, but they will probably have a better nest egg than I will ever have and can certainly finish up at a later date or get into coaching, etc.

Another consideration (one that's thrown around a lot in the abstract but that is well illustrated by Syracuse's 2009 departures) that you did touch on: rules designed to push athletes toward college degrees are truly in their best interest.

Compare Scoop to Devendorf and Harris. Scoop played by the rules, has his bachelor's and a bit of graduate work, and is - in the opinion of most on this board - going to be a pretty successful guy outside of basketball.

The other two guys? Harris was a fringe NBA prospect, Devendorf a guy without a chance. Three years later, neither seems to be tearing it up in his chosen career (and the clock is ticking). And when they have wrung all they can out of basketball, what next? College could have given them two things - a degree and a sustainable career. They took neither.

Young guys with delusions of grandeur need all the help they can get. The NCAA does a lot of things wrong, but APR is at least the right idea. College athletics (heck, society and academia, too) need to find a way to make student-athletes more likely to lead successful lives. I think APR could be a step in that direction.

 

[HoustonCuse]

I honestly do not understand why a kid cannot major in basketball. There are so many aspects to being a professional athlete that these kid could be learning about. They get much of it through their participation with the team, but the time is limited by the NCAA. Everyone realizes that most players entering the NBA are woefully under prepared in many aspects of the job from money management, to marketing savvy, to public relations. The full act of preparing for the draft, going through the workouts, agent selection etc could be an "independent study" course that is worth credit. Why not build a curriculum around all that? Is that considered too "vocational" for a real university?

 

[billsin01]

I'll go where you didn't and (if what we hear is true) judge him for that. If he and Melo are gone (and are currently done with being students, to boot), Syracuse gets a 904 APR. There aren't too many things we could achieve during the tournament that could make that a net-win for SU.

Waiters signed up for obligations when Syracuse offered him a scholarship. Anything short of fulfilling them would absolutely screw over his current teammates (and ostensible friends) and - in the case of SU -- the athletic department as a whole. For those who don't want to carry out their academic duties, the Jeremy Tyler option always exists.

The Jeremy Tyler option is a good point and, which I suppose is my basic point, is what these guys should be doing. The problem is that that isn't the advice they are getting from those around them and from the guys like JB and others. Plus, they probably do worry about the out of sight, out of mind issue of being abroad.

 

[moqui]

The APR just brings into focus what a messy clusterfock professional athletics, err ....amateur college athletics is...

In reality if you want NCAA athletics to be about student athletes then the NCAA should step up and establish an appropriate example rather than trying to milk every red cent they can out of it.

eventually, once conference realignment settles out, the surviving conferences with all the big schools will exit the NCAA and set their own rules, which will include paying the players and coming up with a more realistic set of eligibility requirements

 

[armory]

I'm trying to determine whether the people shaking their heads are doing so sarcastically, or really are just missing the joke fly over their heads.

On the internet? Sarcasm has a 28k modem and never seems to connect in time. And math sarcasm doesn't work, too many people are really really bad at math for it to work.

 

[OttoMets]

I honestly do not understand why a kid cannot major in basketball. There are so many aspects to being a professional athlete that these kid could be learning about. They get much of it through their participation with the team, but the time is limited by the NCAA. Everyone realizes that most players entering the NBA are woefully under prepared in many aspects of the job from money management, to marketing savvy, to public relations. Why not build a curriculum around all that? Is that considered too "vocational" for a real university?

Given all the ludicrous vocational courses of study that have been introduced in the past couple decades, it's not an outrageous suggestion.

Such a thing should certainly be explored; undergraduate education exists to broaden horizons and learn how to communicate and think critically. There's no reason why an athletics-centric curriculum cannot be developed with those goals in mind.

 

[HoustonCuse]

On the internet? Sarcasm has a 28k modem and never seems to connect in time. And math sarcasm doesn't work, too many people are really really bad at math for it to work.

Plus it's not all that funny. And this coming from someone who basically majored in math.

 

[billsin01]

That doesn't mean they did the right - ethical - thing.

Agreed -- but ethics and big-time athletics (pro or college) simply don't go hand-in-hand. It would be nice if they did, but they simply don't.

 

[Knicks411]

I honestly do not understand why a kid cannot major in basketball. There are so many aspects to being a professional athlete that these kid could be learning about. They get much of it through their participation with the team, but the time is limited by the NCAA. Everyone realizes that most players entering the NBA are woefully under prepared in many aspects of the job from money management, to marketing savvy, to public relations. The full act of preparing for the draft, going through the workouts, agent selection etc could be an "independent study" course that is worth credit. Why not build a curriculum around all that? Is that considered too "vocational" for a real university?

I think Bilas may have suggested this at one point?

It's not a bad idea.

 

[OttoMets]

The Jeremy Tyler option is a good point and, which I suppose is my basic point, is what these guys should be doing. The problem is that that isn't the advice they are getting from those around them and from the guys like JB and others. Plus, they probably do worry about the out of sight, out of mind issue of being abroad.

I'm sympathetic to that; basketball abroad could be a good life experience for an 18-year-old, but it might not be the best career-building choice.

The only way to fix these problems is by instituting a baseball-style draft rule. College basketball is for basketball players who want to go to college. For others, the draft is open. If the NCAA could relax its attitude toward agents and allow eligibility for undrafted would-be freshmen, just about everybody would be safe.

 

[billsin01]

Also, I've got to add that you're presenting a false dilemma. There's nothing inherent in wrapping up the semester that would prevent any of these guys from establishing a nest egg, as you put it. Far from it - Syracuse is in the minority of schools that sit in the APR danger zone, while Kentucky and others keep their soon-to-be NBA millionaires academically eligible.

I'm not saying that Kentucky's system is above-board, but college athletes have been able to balance completing their studies with preparing for the draft for decades; I've never heard of a kid hurting his employment chances by closing out his semester.

Well, this is two different issues. I don't think it's a false dilemma, b/c if you are a selfish 19-to-21-year-old star hoops player who only cares about the NBA, you simply have no incentive to go to class. Ethics would suggest you do. Maturity would suggest you do. But realistically you don't have to and that's all most of these kids are conditioned to do.

Now, as for the APR issue -- I agree, it's incumbent upon SU to keep these kids eligible. My guess, however, is that those solutions aren't exactly ethical either. I mean, there is no way -- absolutely no way -- all of UK's future first-rounders are faithfully attending classes and studying for exams now, let alone in April. I went to Loyola and you never saw lacrosse players in class until the day of the final. So they were getting grades somehow, but I suppose few asked too many questions.

But I agree, they should go to class and SU should figure out how to manipulate the APR. I just don't think worrying about ethics is worthwhile.

 

[EastCoast2]

Plus it's not all that funny. And this coming from someone who basically majored in math.

It's actually pretty funny. I majored in math, by the way.:rolling:

 

[hoopsupstate]

Even if Fab and Dion leave, Scoop, Kris and Brandon Reese are going to graduate so they will really help the APR. Remember the APR is the minimum. I believe this year our number is over 1000. It's an average over several years. Let's hope they keep FAB up to date with his studies. If it's only Dion, it won't hurt us that bad.

 

[ImperialOrange]

Ok. Listen though, math sarcasm doesn't work. Take it any other way than its face value.


Unless you are truly incapable of 12 months x$10 = $120

In which case, get off our board Mr. Ewing.....(I am assuming he finally learned to read)

:rolling:

You sir, while being a master in the art of brewing, are really p*ss poor at making assumptions.

 

[strumpfasaurus]

Uconn can't participate in next years NCAA tournament because of the APR rule so it can't be THAT bad.