Things I've heard...

[ImperialOrange]

It's actually pretty funny. I majored in math, by the way.:rolling:

WVU class of ????

and yeah, it was pretty funny

 

[OttoMets]

Well, this is two different issues. I don't think it's a false dilemma, b/c if you are a selfish 19-to-21-year-old star hoops player who only cares about the NBA, you simply have no incentive to go to class. Ethics would suggest you do. Maturity would suggest you do. But realistically you don't have to and that's all most of these kids are conditioned to do.

Now, as for the APR issue -- I agree, it's incumbent upon SU to keep these kids eligible. My guess, however, is that those solutions aren't exactly ethical either. I mean, there is no way -- absolutely no way -- all of UK's future first-rounders are faithfully attending classes and studying for exams now, let alone in April. I went to Loyola and you never saw lacrosse players in class until the day of the final. So they were getting grades somehow, but I suppose few asked too many questions.

But I agree, they should go to class and SU should figure out how to manipulate the APR. I just don't think worrying about ethics is worthwhile.

The false dilemma was in response to the idea that guys are choosing between going to class and solidifying their draft status (and financial future). A lot of young guys probably do look at it that way (or, as you note, probably don't look at the academic end at all). Sadly, you're right - they don't have to go to class. Though I'd like to think that these young guys can take something away from the veterans' example - pride in the program and a sense of responsibility for its future are things that Scoop and Kris carry around.

Of course there are going to be schools that play fast and loose with any ethical norms. (I know SU's been doing it for decades.) But despite the fact that ethical conduct may be in short supply, it doesn't mean it should be disregarded altogether. Far from it; because ethical behavior is lacking, we should continue to be reminded of its importance.

 

[billsin01]

I, likewise, see your point and disagree. What about living up to your responsibilities and commitments? What about doing the right thing? You can say they are exploited by the school, and etc because they aren't paid and they generate revenue, but the student-athlete relationship is a win-win for them. They get invaluable instruction, experience against top-flight competition, exposure to the national media and NBA scouts, support and training in terms of physical conditioning, nutrition, media relations, and many other areas. In return for this they are expected to help the team win games, to stay eligible, and to not harm the program or university in any way. Just bailing on the classwork and thus directly impacting the health of the program is clearly a violation of all aspects of their commitment to the university.

All arguments about getting to the NBA, providing for families, "why would they do anything except focus on that goal," etc are bogus. Read the Scoop Jardine article in the PS. He would have been MUCH better off in terms of providing for his family if he had been a drug dealer for the past four years. Should he have done that? I think we all agree, no.

I knew a guy who paid for his college education dealing weed to his buddies. He's now a detective on the police force and making good coin. I'm not advocating it, but I thought it was a funny story.

I think you guys are missing my point a bit -- the "right" (I put it in quotes b/c I think people love talking about the "right" thing but far fewer people actually do the right thing) thing to do is exactly what you are outlining it. What's more, it's the smart thing to do. My point is that these guys have been focused on nothing but basketball since middle school and that breeds a single-minded and somewhat selfish person. It's good for basketball skill but not great for developing character and/or acting in an ethical fashion.

 

[OttoMets]

Even if Fab and Dion leave, Scoop, Kris and Brandon Reese are going to graduate so they will really help the APR. Remember the APR is the minimum. I believe this year our number is over 1000. It's an average over several years. Let's hope they keep FAB up to date with his studies. If it's only Dion, it won't hurt us that bad.

1,000 is perfect; we're not above that. Graduating seniors don't help any more than guys not leaving early or guys not neglecting class do; each is worth one point. Each player can earn two points per semester - one for being enrolled, and one for not being remiss in his studies.

With 13 players on the roster, there exist 52 possible points for the year (26 for the fall, 26 for the spring).

Take away one for Mookie's absence this spring.

Say you take away Dion for no longer being enrolled after the spring. Take away another for not going to class this term. Assume Fab is going to class; for kicks, assume he's going to be enrolled at Syracuse after this spring, too. That'd be 49/52 for our APR. 942. Safe.

Take away Fab's two spring points, though (since no one thinks he's returning and equally few think he's going to be in good academic standing). 47/52. 904. Bad news bears.

 

[Knicks411]

1,000 is perfect; we're not above that. Graduating seniors don't help any more than guys not leaving early or guys not neglecting class do; each is worth one point. Each player can earn two points per semester - one for being enrolled, and one for not being remiss in his studies.

With 13 players on the roster, there exist 52 possible points for the year (26 for the fall, 26 for the spring).

Take away one for Mookie's absence this spring.

Say you take away Dion for no longer being enrolled after the spring. Take away another for not going to class this term. Assume Fab is going to class; for kicks, assume he's going to be enrolled at Syracuse after this spring, too. That'd be 49/52 for our APR. 942. Safe.

Take away Fab's two spring points, though (since no one thinks he's returning and equally few think he's going to be in good academic standing). 47/52. 904. Bad news bears.

I'm sure you may have gone over this before, but there is some kind of waiver for kids who go pro, right? Every guy that leaves early doesn't result in the loss of a point, right?

I know we were 1,000 for 2010, and I think we did ok last year as well (though Riley transferred) so we may be able to handle a low score, but I'd rather not.

 

[OttoMets]

I'm sure you may have gone over this before, but there is some kind of waiver for kids who go pro, right? Every guy that leaves early doesn't result in the loss of a point, right?

I know we were 1,000 for 2010, and I think we did ok last year as well (though Riley transferred) so we may be able to handle a low score, but I'd rather not.

I think the waiver is only for transfers, but maybe not? I've been kind of learning this as I go along (and am unclear on how the multi-year compilation works).

 

[jordoo]

Yikes! APR needs its own thread. I just waded through 5 pages of APR mumbo jumbo hoping for more Noel scraps.

 

[SBU72]

Oh LordOh Lord

Good thing they don't apply an apr rule here

 

[Knicks411]

I think the waiver is only for transfers, but maybe not? I've been kind of learning this as I go along (and am unclear on how the multi-year compilation works).

We know Kentucky has had decent scores; they lost like 5 kids as Frosh in 2010, so there is no way that was held against them, right?

 

[NKR1978]

I'm sure you may have gone over this before, but there is some kind of waiver for kids who go pro, right? Every guy that leaves early doesn't result in the loss of a point, right?

I know we were 1,000 for 2010, and I think we did ok last year as well (though Riley transferred) so we may be able to handle a low score, but I'd rather not.

I believe they have to be in good academic standing at the time they leave. I have no clue if this is true or current.

 

[OttoMets]

I'm sure you may have gone over this before, but there is some kind of waiver for kids who go pro, right? Every guy that leaves early doesn't result in the loss of a point, right?

I know we were 1,000 for 2010, and I think we did ok last year as well (though Riley transferred) so we may be able to handle a low score, but I'd rather not.

Knicks, I found reference to this (still can't find my other APR reference link; I really should bookmark these things): http://syracusefan.com/threads/update-on-sus-apr-score.17427/

CAW filled us in on the waiver deal; when players turn pro (from good academic standing), the team loses the retention point but may apply for a waiver. If granted, that kid's spring semester is 1/1 instead of 1/2. I don't know if they grant waivers to guys who aren't in good academic standing, though.

 

[Knicks411]

CAW filled us in on the waiver deal; when players turn pro (from good academic standing), the team loses the retention point but may apply for a waiver. If granted, that kid's spring semester is 1/1 instead of 1/2. I don't know if they grant waivers to guys who aren't in good academic standing, though.

Ok that makes sense. I assume as long as the kid is in good academic standing, they'll take the lost point away. (And I think that is the right way to handle it, as an aside, instead of giving them 2/2, give them 1/1).

So the scores we know

2009:865
2010: 1000
2011: ?
2012: ?

You said something like an 904 before, to stay above the 930 cutline we'd need to have scored a 950 for last year. Riley left, but as long as he was in good academic standing as far as I know we should be close to 1000.

The one score we don't know is 2008. Next year's eligibility would be based on 2008-2011, as far as I can tell. If 2011 was 1,000, we'd only need an 855 for 2008 to be above the cutline. If it was 975, we'd need an 880. We got an 865 in 2009, when everyone left, so I find it hard to believe we were that low in 2008. Plus, the further away we get from that 865, the better.

 

[CorduroyG]

so uhhhhhhh, is noel coming here or what?

 

[suthrills]

Wait, this was sarcasm, right? If so, well done. I enjoyed it. If not, then just to clarify -- no, Dion's likely not a student-athlete and the vast majority of football/hoops and, perhaps, lacrosse players aren't. Nature of the beast. It's fine, but these college programs are a means to an end and sports are, far and away, the primary focus for most of these kids.

Yes, sarcasm.

 

[OttoMets]

Ok that makes sense. I assume as long as the kid is in good academic standing, they'll take the lost point away. (And I think that is the right way to handle it, as an aside, instead of giving them 2/2, give them 1/1).

So the scores we know

2009:865
2010: 1000
2011: ?
2012: ?

You said something like an 904 before, to stay above the 930 cutline we'd need to have scored a 950 for last year. Riley left, but as long as he was in good academic standing as far as I know we should be close to 1000.

The one score we don't know is 2008. Next year's eligibility would be based on 2008-2011, as far as I can tell. If 2011 was 1,000, we'd only need an 855 for 2008 to be above the cutline. If it was 975, we'd need an 880. We got an 865 in 2009, when everyone left, so I find it hard to believe we were that low in 2008. Plus, the further away we get from that 865, the better.

What I didn't add (and, again, thanks to CAW) is that the NCAA will accept waiver applications for transfers. If a transfer achieves a 2.6 GPA at his new (four-year) school, the original school gets the retention point. So Dashonte (who thoughtfully stuck around last spring and wrapped up his coursework) counts as a 2/2 for us last spring if he got a 2.6 last fall. And he's supposed to be a good student, so I trust he did.

If that's the case, 2011 featured 12 scholarship players. Aside from Dashonte, we retained 11 (I have no idea if Rick graduated or completed spring studies). With 48 points available, we got at least 46. If Rick completed his spring studies, that's 47; if he graduated, that's perfect. So 2011 earned at least a 958.

For 2008, we had (I think) 12 guys on scholarship. We lost Donte, Josh Wright, and Devin Brennan-McBride (remember him?). That could've been a bloodbath.

 

[Knicks411]

I just googled "Rick Jackson graduation" and I found a story from basically one year ago by Ditota, who mentioned that he would graduate in May. (The story is basically the Scoop story that was posted here, with the names changed).

So that would mean as long as we got an 855 for this year, we'd be ok for 2014, which seems likely to happen.

Going back to 2008, to look at next year's tournament, we'd need the same 855 score as we would for 2012. Could be a bloodbath, but the 865 we got in 2009 has to be about the worst you can do. (Also, they show the 4 year scores for periods prior to 2009, but not the single year scores, but even looking at that, I don't think we could've done much worse than an 865 in 2008. The absolute worst it could be, assuming we got a 1,000 2007, would be 847. Out score dropped from a 955 to a 932 in 2008,(some quick math basically implies our 2008 score was 80 points than the corresponding year that came off the books, so a 920 at best, and probably much much worse) so I think its safe to say 2008 was really bad, but as long was it was 855, I think we're ok. Guess we'll find out for sure in May.

 

[PoppyHart]

Do we even know if the APR applies to scholarship players vs. only "recruited" scholarship players?

I have asked this before, but I have not gotten an answer yet

In the past, JB has given the empty scholarship slot to a walk on. We began the year with 12 scholarship players, leaving one open 'ship. Mookie left at the end of the 1st semester, opening up another.

Has JB given these slots to any of the senior walk ons? Resavy was on the All Big East Academic team and Reese has been on the Honor Roll in the past. Give either or both of them a 'ship and it helps the APR, or is that against the rules?

 

[PoppyHart]

I see your point but I disagree. I mean, in an ideal world, yeah these kids would still go to class and at least put forth some moderate effort to get a degree that would help them out later in life. But, realistically, they are all professional basketball players. I guess Harris is looking to play football or something, but he and devendorf could play overseas and flynn has a chance to carve out a 10-year nba career. Their job as far as they are concerned is to put forth enough effort to stay eligible. When they no longer need to stay eligible, there simply isn't much point, in their eyes. And, I'm not sure I blame them. I mean, they should take classes, but they will probably have a better nest egg than I will ever have and can certainly finish up at a later date or get into coaching, etc.

Except for the 75% or so who are flat broke w/in 2 years of retiring.

 

[moqui]

Take away one for Mookie's absence this spring.

Are you sure that is the way it works in Mookie's case? He left school for personal reasons, is not on the roster, and there have been reports that he will return. I have to believe that a student can disenroll for a semester, assuming they are in good academic standing. Say, for example, there is a death of a family member and the student athlete chooses to take a semester off. You can't be penalized for that, can you? If Mookie's absence is legitimate, then isn't SU's real number 26/24 = 50 (unless, as I wondered earlier, they are able to give that spring semester schollie to someone else). If the number is 50, then even if you lose both points from Dion and Fab, you are at 46/50, .920

 

[Moontan]

I honestly do not understand why a kid cannot major in basketball.

That's handy for the 2-3 kids that get drafted, great for the one who sees a 2nd contract.

How about the other 10 guys? Could you imagine them trying to get a job with a BA in Basketball? Really?

 

[HoustonCuse]

Except for the 75% or so who are flat broke w/in 2 years of retiring.

This is why I don't buy into the "maximize earning potential", "start making money sooner vs later" type arguments. I realize players will not be swayed by this logic, but generally speaking players are much worse off in life if they make it to the NBA. A massive proportion of pro athletes have a rapid trip to complete financial catastrophe. On the average you'd want to delay such an outcome as long as possible.

Consider this: players and their families have no money when they are in college (bad situation), but after an NBA career they are in massive (7 figures) debt (a much worse situation). The high transient income they attain allows them to make investments and leverage themselves in ways that are impossible for most mortals - thus they get into ludicrous amounts of debt.

 

[moqui]

That's handy for the 2-3 kids that get drafted, great for the one who sees a 2nd contract.

How about the other 10 guys? Could you imagine them trying to get a job with a BA in Basketball? Really?

the world needs gym teachers, Danny

it can't be any worse than trying to land a job with a BA in theater

 

[moqui]

I knew a guy who paid for his college education dealing weed to his buddies. He's now a detective on the police force and making good coin.

probably still selling dope, too, only now he's not paying for it first.

 

[Jake]

Here are some things I've heard from coaches/friends in the know. Don't know if they are true, some I hope are and some I hope aren't.

Regarding Nerlen's, rumor is he was told Fab is leaving by the staff. Also, despite all the UK talk he is still a Cuse lean (here's hoping). One actually said his list is "Cuse, then a few other teams so he can say he has a list" I wouldn't say this is wrong. But we are not a slam dunk.

Dion not really welcome back so declare for the draft. This disappoints me if true because I think Dion needs another year and I think he would tear it up next year. I don't think anyone wants Dion to go pro more than Dion.

Brandon's head is all screwed up and he has lost confidence due to JB shuffling the line up around. Conjecture. Haven't heard that.

DC2 is carrying a 3.5 gpa (of course he may be taking underwater fire prevention, but whatever he is taking he is doing pretty well). I was also told he would be playing major minutes if he was on Cuse right now, he is that good. Conjecture. Sounds like someone making an assumption. Reality is I don't see a 290lb 6'8" player functioning on the wing of our zone. He's certainly not taking minutes from Fab at the 5.

Not that this involves Cuse, but Shabazz (if he is even allowed to play) has pretty much eliminated Kentucky from his list. This one shocked me because I've seen him play 4 times this year and Cal was there twice. Don't know, don't care.

 

[edowd26]

Here are some things I've heard from coaches/friends in the know. Don't know if they are true, some I hope are and some I hope aren't.

Regarding Nerlen's, rumor is he was told Fab is leaving by the staff. Also, despite all the UK talk he is still a Cuse lean (here's hoping). One actually said his list is "Cuse, then a few other teams so he can say he has a list" I wouldn't say this is wrong. But we are not a slam dunk.

Dion not really welcome back so declare for the draft. This disappoints me if true because I think Dion needs another year and I think he would tear it up next year. I don't think anyone wants Dion to go pro more than Dion.

Brandon's head is all screwed up and he has lost confidence due to JB shuffling the line up around. Conjecture. Haven't heard that.

DC2 is carrying a 3.5 gpa (of course he may be taking underwater fire prevention, but whatever he is taking he is doing pretty well). I was also told he would be playing major minutes if he was on Cuse right now, he is that good. Conjecture. Sounds like someone making an assumption. Reality is I don't see a 290lb 6'8" player functioning on the wing of our zone. He's certainly not taking minutes from Fab at the 5.

Not that this involves Cuse, but Shabazz (if he is even allowed to play) has pretty much eliminated Kentucky from his list. This one shocked me because I've seen him play 4 times this year and Cal was there twice. Don't know, don't care.

how much do I owe you?