To those who say college is better than NBA

[HOFCeluck]

The closest ones I can think of would probably be the Mavs in 2011 and I guess the 95 Rockets? The 95 Rockets were a six seed. Of course they had one of the 10-12 best players of all time and another HOF in Clyde Drexler. So yeah.

I never knew that about Houston. And they just rolled Orlando in the finals.

 

[Orangezoo]

This is definitely a broken record that won't stop but I think there are merits on both sides even though I am not a fan of today's NBA.

On the pros side you have better athletes, better shooting and better ball movement as a result of that. Having 5-7 capable shooters is more important than anything in terms of having some level of success. It's not a requirement but it has a lot to do with the success of all four teams still playing. Half court offense with these teams can be breathtaking which has a lot to do with talent but also is because with how the 3 point shot has changed the game it makes it far easier for everyone on the court. More room to operate, less reliance on one guy... All makes a difference. While I watch it still plenty, the main reason is there are 10-12 teams I dont mind watching if a game is on. Not to root for but just to catch a game. The talent and offensive flow makes many games entertaining.

With all that good it begs the question why are still so many frustrated and have dislike for the NBA? I think many points have been well made in terms of the lack of defense, effort then you have the whole officiating mess. All of those are certainly points I agree with. The old school part of me misses the difficulty of the game that was present when it was more physical, defense was better and the two point shot and post play were a much larger part of the game. It felt like each possession meant more. Again that is an old take ( especially from someone in my generation who started watching in the early 90s) but the game seems too easy these days to me. With that said when I really think on it , what turns me off more than that is how much player movement now has become the norm. With the NFL and college hoops and football there is a foundation of players and coaches that make up a whole of the rooting interest and loyalty to a franchise. The NBA used to be like that as well. If you were a Bulls fan you had Jordan , Pippen , Ho Grant, Phil Jackson and then some movement between other positions but the foundation was there. The old Celtics and Lakers same. New Lakers with Kobe, same. Knicks - same. Jazz, Hornets I could go on. As these teams had success over generations you had both the players and the team you grew to know and root for. Turnover existed but rarely was it the main guys who truly were the team. Today it's a circus of change. Good players in their prime seem to rarely sit still and the players mean more than the teams or so it seems. A jersey is just a branded business suit vs part of a players identity. For some I know that is awesome. For me, it's pointless to have a rooting interest anymore knowing the team may change in a heartbeat. The one exception I would say is San Antonio , at least compared to others. Golden State to a minor extent too before the Durant addition.

 

[Knicks411]

I never knew that about Houston. And they just rolled Orlando in the finals.

Yeah and looking back at their playoff run, the amazing thing is in round 1 they went to 5 games (back when it was best of 5) and won @utah by just 4 in game 5, and in round 2 they went to 7 with the Suns and won game 7 by just a point.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I know this thread is about the NBA but I think the 'bad' college basketball games people on here are droning on about aren't that bad.

A low scoring defensive battle is still better to watch than other lackluster sporting events. Its only 2 hours. It beats a boring 0-0 soccer game. It beats a boring low scoring hockey game or a 6-1 game. You like watching Ohio St beat a MAC school by 35 or a 4 TD NFL blowout? A 4.5 hour lopsided baseball game with non stop pitching changes and umpire reviews?

I don't really mind watching 2 teams trying to grind it out and the game coming down to which team can make more tough contested baskets down the stretch. I don't get mad because a game is low scoring and in the 50s. Its only 1-2 games a year of ours that stick out to me for bad basketball and these are always ACC tilts vs another team with size and talent.

I just want more 4 year players. Let guys get drafted and return to college if the NBA team that drafted them doesn't think they are ready.

The issue I think is how or why it is a grinder . When Syracuse had multiple games this past season with 3 assists; that’s a problem. Abolishing ball movement and running down the shot clock to throw up a wild shot/sequence is a problem. Settling for bailout shots is a problem. UVA and others who play slower for a purpose probe a defense, move the ball, and get a good shot. If it’s a legitimate grinder where two defenses are taking away everything and shots just aren’t falling that’s another story. But, when you don’t move the ball and can’t shoot well it is ugly basketball no matter how you slice it which becomes a difficult watch, obviously.

 

[Sudano]

The site censors the capitalF due to more nefarious uses of the letter. Frank's initial is just collateral damage.

Well F. That!

 

[manleyzoo]

This is definitely a broken record that won't stop but I think there are merits on both sides even though I am not a fan of today's NBA.

On the pros side you have better athletes, better shooting and better ball movement as a result of that. Having 5-7 capable shooters is more important than anything in terms of having some level of success. It's not a requirement but it has a lot to do with the success of all four teams still playing. Half court offense with these teams can be breathtaking which has a lot to do with talent but also is because with how the 3 point shot has changed the game it makes it far easier for everyone on the court. More room to operate, less reliance on one guy... All makes a difference. While I watch it still plenty, the main reason is there are 10-12 teams I dont mind watching if a game is on. Not to root for but just to catch a game. The talent and offensive flow makes many games entertaining.

With all that good it begs the question why are still so many frustrated and have dislike for the NBA? I think many points have been well made in terms of the lack of defense, effort then you have the whole officiating mess. All of those are certainly points I agree with. The old school part of me misses the difficulty of the game that was present when it was more physical, defense was better and the two point shot and post play were a much larger part of the game. It felt like each possession meant more. Again that is an old take ( especially from someone in my generation who started watching in the early 90s) but the game seems too easy these days to me. With that said when I really think on it , what turns me off more than that is how much player movement now has become the norm. With the NFL and college hoops and football there is a foundation of players and coaches that make up a whole of the rooting interest and loyalty to a franchise. The NBA used to be like that as well. If you were a Bulls fan you had Jordan , Pippen , Ho Grant, Phil Jackson and then some movement between other positions but the foundation was there. The old Celtics and Lakers same. New Lakers with Kobe, same. Knicks - same. Jazz, Hornets I could go on. As these teams had success over generations you had both the players and the team you grew to know and root for. Turnover existed but rarely was it the main guys who truly were the team. Today it's a circus of change. Good players in their prime seem to rarely sit still and the players mean more than the teams or so it seems. A jersey is just a branded business suit vs part of a players identity. For some I know that is awesome. For me, it's pointless to have a rooting interest anymore knowing the team may change in a heartbeat. The one exception I would say is San Antonio , at least compared to others. Golden State to a minor extent too before the Durant addition.

It all boils down to the NBA is a players' league, there are only a few high profile coaches, players come and go. NBA fans don't pay to see coaches. CBB is all about the coaches, they're the ones with the lasting identities, players come and go.

 

[moqui]

i have been a fan of syracuse basketball since my dad took me to my first game when i was 6 years old. i am emotionally tied to the program and watch almost every game. nothing tops it. i do not post on any nba boards or engage in any nba fan communities. nor in any other sport. only here.
but i am also a basketball fan in general. it was my favorite sport to play deep into my 30s and remains by far my favorite spectator sport. and as a pure basketball fan, i estimate that about 85% of college basketball games are nearly unwatchable. for the nba, that ratio is reversed. and the talk about passion blah blah blah. a december contest between the clippers and sacremento has more passion than a december game between syracuse and northeast nowhere state.

empirically
pace: nba>ncaa
talent: nba>ncaa
officiating: nba>ncaa
my personal history & emotional attachment: ncaa>nba

 

[Orangezoo]

It all boils down to the NBA is a players' league, there are only a few high profile coaches, players come and go. NBA fans don't pay to see coaches. CBB is all about the coaches, they're the ones with the lasting identities, players come and go.

I didn't insinuate the NBA is a coaches league or that is a reason to watch. While yes the NBA is a players league, player identity is more independent than ever and has very little to do with the team they play on. It has become far more entertainment than sports and more akin to non team sports given there is hardly any player-franchise loyalty these days. It is a me league and it certainly plays into societal values and how things are shifting and thus fits in well and continues to grow in popularity.

 

[manleyzoo]

I didn't insinuate the NBA is a coaches league or that is a reason to watch. While yes the NBA is a players league, player identity is more independent than ever and has very little to do with the team they play on. It has become far more entertainment than sports and more akin to non team sports given there is hardly any player-franchise loyalty these days. It is a me league and it certainly plays into societal values and how things are shifting and thus fits in well and continues to grow in popularity.

So players care more about themselves than the team they play on? Hmmm...is there franchise-player loyalty? When a player is no longer useful to a team they cast him off as they choose, yet players can't choose to work somewhere else without being accused of no loyalty, no interest in the team? Professional sports has always been about entertainment, you pay your money, you see a show, you go home. The NBA has always been a star's league, some of the stars play well with others some don't. Some grow into it. Baseball has always been a star's game, so is international soccer. The idea that somehow players are more callous and self-interested than owners is silly.

 

[Orangezoo]

So players care more about themselves than the team they play on? Hmmm...is there franchise-player loyalty? When a player is no longer useful to a team they cast him off as they choose, yet players can't choose to work somewhere else without being accused of no loyalty, no interest in the team? Professional sports has always been about entertainment, you pay your money, you see a show, you go home. The NBA has always been a star's league, some of the stars play well with others some don't. Some grow into it. Baseball has always been a star's game, so is international soccer. The idea that somehow players are more callous and self-interested than owners is silly.

Wow.. take it easy tiger. You took the word loyalty and applied it in a totally different context. I am firmly aware of it being a stars game. I am speaking about how the landscape has changed in terms of players moving around far more, including the stars. It changes things as a fan in my opinion in that more than ever you watch players more than root for teams. To me that defeats some of the purpose of a team sport and rooting interests.

Yes international soccer is similar and this is why you find some of the most rabid fan bases amongst teams with far less success or in second tier leagues. Again point wasn't to infringe on anyone's lawn here and you totally misinterpreted my post. I guess that is my bad for not clarifying that I wasn't attacking the players.

 

[Orangezoo]

How about this- The NBA is the best it has ever been and the best sports product out there. Better?

 

[KaiserUEO]

Knicks bandwagon has closed.

The championship run will be awesome without all you.

 

[MSOrange]

Knicks bandwagon has closed.

The championship run will be awesome without all you.

We're trying to have a serious discussion Kaiser. There's no need to get silly!

 

[Orangezoo]

Didn't realize WestChester was looking so good... I've long given in to the Knicks being forever an almost...

 

[manleyzoo]

Wow.. take it easy tiger. You took the word loyalty and applied it in a totally different context. I am firmly aware of it being a stars game. I am speaking about how the landscape has changed in terms of players moving around far more, including the stars. It changes things as a fan in my opinion in that more than ever you watch players more than root for teams. To me that defeats some of the purpose of a team sport and rooting interests.

Yes international soccer is similar and this is why you find some of the most rabid fan bases amongst teams with far less success or in second tier leagues. Again point wasn't to infringe on anyone's lawn here and you totally misinterpreted my post. I guess that is my bad for not clarifying that I wasn't attacking the players.

Then there's always the real live possibility that I misread your posts. :bat: It's that I'm old enough to remember the reserve clause in baseball and similar contracts in basketball. And I knew the first MLB free agent Andy Messersmith. Most of the arguments against player movement back in the day accused them of disloyalty and destroying the team feeling, so there's every likelihood that I unfairly read that into your post. On the stars vs. teams thing, I've always rooted for or against individual players at the pro level, particularly with baseball but also with the NBA, usually for stupid reasons -- maybe I hate their stance or the way they shoot free throws haha.

 

[OrangeFoo]

Knicks bandwagon has closed.

The championship run will be awesome without all you.

The Nitkilina pick looks worse and worse every single day... Thanks Phil

Imagine the Knicks with that kid on the Jazz Utah, who I believe is a NYC'er and which is who they SHOULD have picked.

The Knicks problem is that they really are talent-starved. Philly and Boston have such a huge headstart with players who are so young, I'm not sure if the Knicks will be truly competitive in the East for a decade by which time the Porzingis era will be over. What's scary is both Boston and Philly still have a number of high draft picks coming... Philly has 10 this year and Boston has some high ones down the road I believe.

Phil really FCUKED the Knicks and now they are basically the Mets... a team who's window shut before it really even began thanks to poor roster building and teams in their own division who accelerated past them with much much younger talent.

 

[Knicks411]

The Nitkilina pick looks worse and worse every single day... Thanks Phil

Imagine the Knicks with that kid on the Jazz Utah, who I believe is a NYC'er and which is who they SHOULD have picked.

The Knicks problem is that they really are talent-starved. Philly and Boston have such a huge headstart with players who are so young, I'm not sure if the Knicks will be truly competitive in the East for a decade by which time the Porzingis era will be over. What's scary is both Boston and Philly still have a number of high draft picks coming... Philly has 10 this year and Boston has some high ones down the road I believe.

Phil really FCUKED the Knicks and now they are basically the Mets... a team who's window shut before it really even began thanks to poor roster building and teams in their own division who accelerated past them with much much younger talent.

Mitchell is obviously a star and the Knicks whiffed (as did other teams) on him, but Frank is already a good defender. I don't see any reason to think he's not going to be at least a solid player. He'll never be Mitchell though. But a lot of people were banging the drum for them to take Malik Monk, and he was pretty awful last year.

I'm disappointed they won the games they did down the stretch though. Could use a higher pick th is year

 

[OrangeFoo]

Mitchell is obviously a star and the Knicks whiffed (as did other teams) on him, but Frank is already a good defender. I don't see any reason to think he's not going to be at least a solid player. He'll never be Mitchell though. But a lot of people were banging the drum for them to take Malik Monk, and he was pretty awful last year.

I'm disappointed they won the games they did down the stretch though. Could use a higher pick th is year

My main concern with Frank is his inability to really do anything on offense beyond recirculating the ball. In this day and age you need your point to do a LOT more than that. If all Frank turns into is a role player then he is a huge whiff and sets back the rebuild a couple of years.

 

[Knicks411]

My main concern with Frank is his inability to really do anything on offense beyond recirculating the ball. In this day and age you need your point to do a LOT more than that. If all Frank turns into is a role player then he is a huge whiff and sets back the rebuild a couple of years.

Frank was the 9th pick in the draft, if you get a role player there it's not a bad outcome. It's not Donovan Mitchell, I will grant you that. But if you're rebuilding plan is based around getting stars in the late lottery, well, good luck. (Like i said, knicks should've lost more games this year)

i do have some of the same concerns you do with Frank, I'm not sure he's going to be a pure penetrating point guard.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Frank was the 9th pick in the draft, if you get a role player there it's not a bad outcome. It's not Donovan Mitchell, I will grant you that. But if you're rebuilding plan is based around getting stars in the late lottery, well, good luck. (Like i said, knicks should've lost more games this year)

i do have some of the same concerns you do with Frank, I'm not sure he's going to be a pure penetrating point guard.

Let’s face it, they love him so much they groomed Burke and traded for mudiay...

 

[Knicks411]

Let’s face it, they love him so much they groomed Burke and traded for mudiay...

Hey, I didn't say they loved him. I think he can be a player. I have no idea what they're thinking.

Mudiay is a disaster

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

Mitchell along with Porzingas would have been enough for the Knicks to land a big time Free Agent this year or next. The Knicks were the team that blew up his stock and made him skyrocket up draft boards since they thought long and hard about taking him he didn't hire an agent and was likely to return to school. Big miss. Its too bad there is no way Dolan will ever sell despite possibly being the worst owner in sports the NBA would be way more fun if the Knicks had their act together and had a core like Mitchell-Kahwi-Porzingas and I am a Boston fan.

 

[Orangezoo]

If I had a nickel for how many times I've said imagine if the Knicks had...

 

[Orangezoo]

Then there's always the real live possibility that I misread your posts. :bat: It's that I'm old enough to remember the reserve clause in baseball and similar contracts in basketball. And I knew the first MLB free agent Andy Messersmith. Most of the arguments against player movement back in the day accused them of disloyalty and destroying the team feeling, so there's every likelihood that I unfairly read that into your post. On the stars vs. teams thing, I've always rooted for or against individual players at the pro level, particularly with baseball but also with the NBA, usually for stupid reasons -- maybe I hate their stance or the way they shoot free throws haha.

I am a beleaguered Knicks fan myself who has gotten to the point I don't even care to make sure I know who all is on the roster there has been so much movement. I'm young but old fashioned in that I enjoy missing a couple months or even half a season due to work and not feeling like my team went through six line changes the next time I have a chance to tune back in.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

What are you going to say when over the last 3 series off the playoffs GS-Houston/Boston-Cleveland/Finals its all blowouts and there are only 2-3 close games overall?

Welp looks like it will be 6/6 on double digit margins of victory across both series after tonight.

Best of 7 is overrated come to think of it how can people prefer that to college where the tournament is single elimination and most games are close often coming down to the last possession? Glad the 2 games I've been to were good and not crappy like this.