zone The game has passed JB by

[Bayside44]

again your hard evidence how many zone only title teams ? or are we dancing in circles here ?
1000 wins are indeed legendary. but are the season winning % growing or shrinking last few years ? and don't tell me the ACC is tougher than the BE.
finally beating virginia makes us better ? is st. johns better than us ? man it's one game.

The ACC is tougher than the Big East. Road game for us had half our fans in many of those places, and in many of the Big East years the bottom half plus were total dregs.

The guy won a huge game, brought the team and the mess it was from earlier in the year back to life and people bitch about a defense that seems be effective.

 

[SoBeCuse]

This post annoyed me for several reasons:
1. Pondering whether a coach has "mailed it in" is extremely insulting. Like JB is not trying. Francis has disagreed with the range of our recruiting and some individual choices but has never said JB has mailed it in.
2. Saying "very few, if any, ELITE recruits want to play the zone 100%" is your bs interpretation. We just got Battle. To claim the zone is a big deterrent is total conjecture. You just don't like the zone and project that onto recruiting. When our recruiting was at its peak we were 100% zone.

It looks like JB and team, in light of sanctions, has adopted a somewhat risky calculated strategy of trying for a slightly higher level recruit or falling back to a grad . I was excited about the talent we had coming into this season.

You don't like the zone and you want JB out and you thought it was fair to ponder whether he has "mailed it in". It seems like you are one of the targets of the OP,

Chill out, tough guy. Insulting to who? You? Cry me a river. It's a message board and it is simply pondering. Recruits have been quoted (Nick Richards for example) saying they don't want to play zone. I'm not that stupid to just lay conjecture out on here. Battle is a very good recruit but not an Elite guy in terms of a Top 20 prospect. I love Battle, by the way.

Again, you rubes are mistaking me for not caring about the program and insinuating I don't bleed as much Orange as you guys do because of "ponderings." Please.

 

[orangehomer]

Georgetown, St. John's and Uconn. All once great programs, are now in trouble and may be looking for new coaches soon. I guess the fact that Boeheim is still playing in FF's is quite a testament to his greatness.

we can point to our title from 15 years ago and Georgetown can point to their title from 25 years ago. meh. villanova has two and Yukon has 4. both better than us. boeheims run is over, and it ends with a whimper. now we go into the unknown.

 

[pearl31]

Chill out, tough guy. Insulting to who? You? Cry me a river. It's a message board and it is simply pondering. Recruits have been quoted (Nick Richards for example) saying they don't want to play zone. I'm not that stupid to just lay conjecture out on here. Battle is a very good recruit but not an Elite guy in terms of a Top 20 prospect. I love Battle, by the way.

Again, you rubes are mistaking me for not caring about the program and insinuating I don't bleed as much Orange as you guys do because of "ponderings." Please.

whoa the dreaded "rubes" attack is in play! go get 'em, mr. cosmopolitan!

 

[dasher]

St. johns, Yukon, Georgetown, villanova say hi

Final regular reason wins in the Big East regular season while we were in it. Syracuse 353, G-town 331, UConn 312, Nova 300, St john's 283, A 20 win margin over second is pretty big. Let alone the margin against the rest. We also have more final fours than any of those schools. 2 in the last 4 years for this dying program. Oh, and since you weren't around, John Gillon, who is shooting over 40% from 3 and over 80% from the free throw line in the ACC, had 43 pts the other night. And yes. both UConn and Nova have more NC's than us. Do you think Nova has been a more successful basketball program than us since 1976?

 

[SoBeCuse]

whoa the dreaded "rubes" attack is in play! go get 'em, mr. cosmopolitan!

Thought I would class it up with a "rubes" mention. One of my favorite descriptions. Heard it first from Anthony Bourdain. In Kitchen Confidential he talks about how in a couple of the top steakhouses/restaurants in NYC the worst cuts of meat are always saved for the "rubes" who come in and order medium well/well done.

 

[realorange]

I agree with the balance of your post. My concern is can our current staff teach M2M?

I'm sure they could if they had to. But, what's your point? If you aren't going to use it, why worry about teaching it.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Man if we keep winning this year, some people here are gonna be really P-eed off. What will the excuse be when we beat Duke? Allen didn't trip anyone.

 

[iommi]

I'm sure they could if they had to. But, what's your point? If you aren't going to use it, why worry about teaching it.

Sounds like Hop wants to mix up the defenses when he's head coach. We might play man, will it be solid?

 

[orangecuse]

I agree with the balance of your post. My concern is can our current staff teach M2M?

In diplomacy, if our current staff can't teach man to man, then they, imo, have absolutely no business being a coach at this level.

Man to man is the standard, period. These student-athletes prior to getting to the Hill have played it their entire lives, in reality, it's the only defense they competently know/understand. Syracuse's/JB's zone is more complex, and an outlier when considering about what 98% that is taught/used out there.

JB has had tremendous success with the zone, and since he's the captain of the ship, chooses to play it, and it exclusively. However, when JB states that our players (high level athletes) can't play man to man, not even a wink, well, that's just JB being JB, and uttering his version of 'alternative facts.' We don't play man to man at SU anymore (JB did in the past) because JB simply chooses not to do so.

Somehow, all these players at other schools that we have recruited (some quite heavily) are managing to play it at their respective institutions. If you believe everything JB claims, than not a one would've had the capacity to play it here.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

we can point to our title from 15 years ago and Georgetown can point to their title from 25 years ago. meh. villanova has two and Yukon has 4. both better than us. boeheims run is over, and it ends with a whimper. now we go into the unknown.

Or we can point to the fact that we played in the final four in two of the last four years and Georgetown Yukon and St. John's will all finish with losing records again this year. Like I said all three you may be looking for new coaches very soon because they are not winning anymore.

Do you think those programs are in better shape than Syracuse right now? Georgetown's national championship was over 30 years ago and they are becoming less relevant every day. Saint johns hasn't been relevant in 30 years. Yukon is already in the unknown as Kevin Ollie is taking the program down.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Recruits have been quoted (Nick Richards for example).

That's 1 kid. Can you name any others? In the last 40 years?

Battle is a very good recruit but not an Elite guy in terms of a Top 20 prospect. I love Battle, by the way.

Based on what?.

 

[MGP]

again your hard evidence how many zone only title teams ? or are we dancing in circles here ?

The fact that there aren't many zone-only teams period, yet one has won a title is a pretty compelling argument...

 

[realorange]

As for every player knows how to play M2M, just remember that JB made the decision to go only zone after a loss using M2M to Lemoyne.

 

[FrancoPizza]

As for every player knows how to play M2M, just remember that JB made the decision to go only zone after a loss using M2M to Lemoyne.

You really believe that now? Here's some good advice: don't take everything JBsays at face value. He made that decision before lemoyne and used that game as an excuse.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Chill out, tough guy. Insulting to who? You? Cry me a river. It's a message board and it is simply pondering. Recruits have been quoted (Nick Richards for example) saying they don't want to play zone. I'm not that stupid to just lay conjecture out on here. Battle is a very good recruit but not an Elite guy in terms of a Top 20 prospect. I love Battle, by the way.

Again, you rubes are mistaking me for not caring about the program and insinuating I don't bleed as much Orange as you guys do because of "ponderings." Please.

It's an insult directed at JB to say he has "mailed it in". He bleeds orange.

Battle was an excellent recruit, Mal was excellent, McCollough was high. True, Bryant hurt and Quade too (although I don't think QG is actually in the same tier as the others mentioned). And next year's class is not finished, we now have to wait out grad trannies. AW3 was a very highly rated grad .

It is confusing to the orange rubes among us when someone who claims to be just as much of a fan wants the face of the program out and the nationally identified defense changed.

 

[OttoMets]

Zone 100% of the time took us to 2 Final Fours in the last 4 years. Kansas is 0-4 playing man to man. So is Virginia. Two pretty good defensive teams that made 0 final fours in that span.

But it was the press (and Malachi's scoring) that earned a Final Four last season. Before that we were dead in the water. 100% zone would have had us losing to Virginia, ending the season with an exciting trip to the regional final but no Final Four.

 

[SoBeCuse]

But it was the press (and Malachi's scoring) that earned a Final Four last season. Before that we were dead in the water. 100% zone would have had us losing to Virginia, ending the season with an exciting trip to the regional final but no Final Four.

Same with Gonzaga. We were dead before the press. I just don't get why posters are villainized for wanting to deploy a myriad of defenses. I personally envy how Louisville plays. Yes, keep some 2-3. Someone should post a poll on here regarding this topic. I don't think the rubes would like the results. It's getting unreal how you can't criticize/critique the coach or team these days. People are acting like we're some world beater 3 seed or something right now. We have work to do still...lots!

 

[FrancoPizza]

But it was the press (and Malachi's scoring) that earned a Final Four last season. Before that we were dead in the water. 100% zone would have had us losing to Virginia, ending the season with an exciting trip to the regional final but no Final Four.

And 100% zone would have us losing to Okla St in 2003. And ND in 2003. And Pitt in 2003. Kansas in 2008. The list goes on...

 

[upperdeck]

did virg play all m2m and lose to SU or did I miss that part? Why didnt the team with the supposed best defense in the country not switch to something different?

if SU was better at the press we would use it more, if we would play just avg man we might switch to it.. Maybe we just cant get 4-5 horses so we can run whatever D we want.

 

[br801]

did virg play all m2m and lose to SU or did I miss that part? Why didnt the team with the supposed best defense in the country not switch to something different?

if SU was better at the press we would use it more, if we would play just avg man we might switch to it.. Maybe we just cant get 4-5 horses so we can run whatever D we want.

I believe going into this season, JB did intend to deploy the press as a regular weapon, with Chukwu as the rim protector. That wasn't working out too well early on though, and then his injury effectively took that strategy off the table.

 

[two3zone]

Whining about deficiencies after a win and whining about bullies is nothing if not consistent. Have you considered the possibility that your actions may be influencing how others interact with you?

Tell that to our coach.

 

[KevMonstah]

why would one think the game has passed him by? i've been a long time SU fan, and I get annoyed as can be with some of his coaching
moves, but i wouldn't say simply by playing zone 100% of the time the game has passed him by. among plus/minus of the zone that
can make you happy or make you miserable on a yearly basis ...

JB's teams usually start out strong, and are very competitive in, or win outright, the early season tourneys, because the zone flusters
teams that haven't gotten their offenses working efficiently yet, or because they don't have much experience facing a zone. This CAN
have the same effect in the tourneys also, because a team may not be familiar with a zone, but then they have had a full year of getting
an offense working, so the effect may not be as pronounced. Teams that are familiar with it can beat it, and can beat it in usually a
few ways: they crash the glass, their offense is good, or some guy becomes germain mopa-nila and goes off for his career high. what
you end up with is a team that looks great to start the season, peaks early, then fades.

the one thing I've always hated about the zone is that it doesn't put any "time is of the essence" pressure on the opposing offense, and
where this ought to drive SU fans nuts is when you get the combination of a) a seemingly inferior opponent, and b) a crappy performance
by SU. for example, a 46-45 victory over georgia tech, or an ncaa loss to vermont. the poor performance by SU's offense does not
encourage the other team to do anything other than pass ... pass ... pass ... and slowly look for a shot. if SU's hitting, the have to make
more of an effort to find and maybe settle for a non-optimal shot. if SU's not hitting, there is no pressure at all to shoot early in the
clock, and little to no pressure on the ballhandlers to encourage turnovers. i hate when this happens. every time. and one would think
even two mins of a different defense might change the tenor of the game. but it seems we must wait for coach hopkins before we will
get it.

i used to thoroughly enjoy watching SU play man and go on runs that would actually get the crowd in the dome to stay on their feet
for longer than ten seconds. and cheer so it didn't sound like a 20,000+ prayer service. that's frustrating to see. SU makes a great
play, is on a run, and they go back to a zone, and 20-25 seconds of passing, the opponent throws up a crummy shot, gets the
offensive rebound, and puts it back.

but that doesn't mean the game has passed him by.

kev

 

[Col. Bleep]

Or we can point to the fact that we played in the final four in two of the last four years and Georgetown Yukon and St. John's will all finish with losing records again this year. Like I said all three you may be looking for new coaches very soon because they are not winning anymore.

Do you think those programs are in better shape than Syracuse right now? Georgetown's national championship was over 30 years ago and they are becoming less relevant every day. Saint johns hasn't been relevant in 30 years. Yukon is already in the unknown as Kevin Ollie is taking the program down.

All true.
Their programs may not be in better shape overall...but the Orange embarrassed themselves against all 3 teams this season.
The G-town loss casts a cloud over all the accomplishments since... even if we run the table against Duke and Louisville.

Does this have anything to do with the 2-3 zone?
Perhaps.
Our old BE rival coaches know it and know how to beat it.
And beat it they did.

If your defense is being beaten could it help to change things up?
Yes...if the team is capable and trained to do other things.

 

[two3zone]

Excellent post. People lose sight of the fact we have had early departures (because we recruit so well) and had to deal with NCAA sanctions, not to mention playing in a loaded conference. 2 Final Fours in 4 years are not enough for some. Have to win the ACC every year. When was the last time Arizona or Kansas played in a Final Four?

Really?

Kansas has been to the elite 8 4 times in the past 10 years and was in the final four in 2012, and haven't missed the tournament since 1989 and have 203 wins and 43 losses this decade. You think we've been better?

Enough with comparing us to Kansas, at the end of the day most teams in a P5 confrence deals with early departures, we're not the only ones, we had sanctions, well, kinda our fault, and there are great conferences out there.

I don't believe our final fours were flukes, but I don't think UConn's titles are flukes either, but using the final fours the past few years don't put us above a Kansas or any other school that hasn't been to as many in as many years, if it did don't you think kids would be lining up to play for us? Hate to break it to you, they're not. Recruiting has not been at the level it was in the late 00s and early 10s and we're missing almost as much as we're hitting with these guys. If you can't see that trend I don't know what to tell you. We can either hold on to our precious final fours or we can look at reality which says we're not nearly as talented as we were at the beginning of the decade and try to figure out what's wrong.