zone The game has passed JB by | Page 9 | Syracusefan.com

zone The game has passed JB by

SoBeCuse said:
Same with Gonzaga. We were dead before the press. I just don't get why posters are villainized for wanting to deploy a myriad of defenses. I personally envy how Louisville plays. Yes, keep some 2-3. Someone should post a poll on here regarding this topic. I don't think the rubes would like the results. It's getting unreal how you can't criticize/critique the coach or team these days. People are acting like we're some world beater 3 seed or something right now. We have work to do still...lots!
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Amen! It's interesting for sure. Although, just as I can't have a sensible and reasonable discussion on religion with my 100% Italian, Roman Catholic father (who's 86) it appears it also holds true here as well with some in regards to the almighty zone. :)
 
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two3zone said:
Really?

Kansas has been to the elite 8 4 times in the past 10 years and was in the final four in 2012, and haven't missed the tournament since 1989 and have 203 wins and 43 losses this decade. You think we've been better?

Enough with comparing us to Kansas, at the end of the day most teams in a P5 confrence deals with early departures, we're not the only ones, we had sanctions, well, kinda our fault, and there are great conferences out there.

I don't believe our final fours were flukes, but I don't think UConn's titles are flukes either, but using the final fours the past few years don't put us above a Kansas or any other school that hasn't been to as many in as many years, if it did don't you think kids would be lining up to play for us? Hate to break it to you, they're not. Recruiting has not been at the level it was in the late 00s and early 10s and we're missing almost as much as we're hitting with these guys. If you can't see that trend I don't know what to tell you. We can either hold on to our precious final fours or we can look at reality which says we're not nearly as talented as we were at the beginning of the decade and try to figure out what's wrong.
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I don't think that is true. Our recruiting really hasn't changed all that much. I think Waters did a story with plenty of stats on that just a short while ago. Our top 10 players have been few and far between. Our 2010 team was a great team but didn't have highly rated high school players on it. Even our 2012 team. I think what problems that we have had are mostly related to the sanctions. The two coaches on the road is a killer. The limit on ships cost us one blue chip player that I am aware of because we couldn't say for sure that we had a ship available to him. If you remember back to the first time we got hit with sanctions, that really hurt the program. We got very lucky with Moten being great and Wallace living close by. The sanctions are almost over. Things will move up slightly. Because at the end of the day, that is where they fell from.
 
dasher said:
I don't think that is true. Our recruiting really hasn't changed all that much. I think Waters did a story with plenty of stats on that just a short while ago. Our top 10 players have been few and far between. Our 2010 team was a great team but didn't have highly rated high school players on it. Even our 2012 team. I think what problems that we have had are mostly related to the sanctions. The two coaches on the road is a killer. The limit on ships cost us one blue chip player that I am aware of because we couldn't say for sure that we had a ship available to him. If you remember back to the first time we got hit with sanctions, that really hurt the program. We got very lucky with Moten being great and Wallace living close by. The sanctions are almost over. Things will move up slightly. Because at the end of the day, that is where they fell from.
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But why is two coaches on the road a killer? That's what programs DO! Furthermore, JB rarely went anywhere. That's a fact. The likelihood of more coaches needing to be on the road to cover multiple games/events happening simultaneously is just bunk, imo. Those scenarios would rarely come up. I'm actually generally OK with recruiting. I think one issue is glaring though and we should ALL be able to identify this if the goggles come off. Point guard. You can't go 3-4 recruiting classes and not find a serviceable PG at a program like Syracuse. That's a problem, obviously.
 
SoBeCuse said:
But why is two coaches on the road a killer? That's what programs DO! Furthermore, JB rarely went anywhere. That's a fact. The likelihood of more coaches needing to be on the road to cover multiple games/events happening simultaneously is just bunk, imo. Those scenarios would rarely come up. I'm actually generally OK with recruiting. I think one issue is glaring though and we should ALL be able to identify this if the goggles come off. Point guard. You can't go 3-4 recruiting classes and not find a serviceable PG at a program like Syracuse. That's a problem, obviously.
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Oh, you are so wrong. Of all the sanctions, that was the biggest penalty. And other schools have three coaches out on the trail all the time. They are out not just seeing kids but building relationships.
 
dasher said:
Oh, you are so wrong. Of all the sanctions, that was the biggest penalty. And other schools have three coaches out on the trail all the time. They are out not just seeing kids but building relationships.
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Franklin Howard and Kaleb Joseph were both top 100 players and both look like they wouldn't start on a great high school team. How's that not a recruiting issue? Those are big time misses, we haven't had a point guard since Ennis was here.
 
dasher said:
Oh, you are so wrong. Of all the sanctions, that was the biggest penalty. And other schools have three coaches out on the trail all the time. They are out not just seeing kids but building relationships.
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That's your opinion. I have mine. We should probably let the recruiting experts chime in more before this goes deeper.
 
I think kansas has been real good,, but its also helped that at hardly any point in the last 10 years has there been more than 1-2 really good teams that could compete with them so that they almost always have a solid record and a great seeding.. Few teams survive the initial seeding to get to the final four and the stats show that.

if you ran a computer program that swapped the seeds so that a 15 became a 2 seed, i think it would show even a 15 seed got to the final four 2-3x as often as it would as a 15 seed. its a self rewarding prophecy.. but you need to play well to get the seed too.
 
FrancoPizza said:
You really believe that now? Here's some good advice: don't take everything JBsays at face value. He made that decision before lemoyne and used that game as an excuse.
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OK I didn't realize you were so plugged in.
 
Col. Bleep said:
All true.
Their programs may not be in better shape overall...but the Orange embarrassed themselves against all 3 teams this season.
The G-town loss casts a cloud over all the accomplishments since... even if we run the table against Duke and Louisville.

Does this have anything to do with the 2-3 zone?
Perhaps.
Our old BE rival coaches know it and know how to beat it.
And beat it they did.

If your defense is being beaten could it help to change things up?
Yes...if the team is capable and trained to do other things.
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The team, it's offense and defense are much different in their execution then those early games. Aside from talking about them as losses there really is nothing else to say.
 
upperdeck said:
I think kansas has been real good,, but its also helped that at hardly any point in the last 10 years has there been more than 1-2 really good teams that could compete with them so that they almost always have a solid record and a great seeding.. Few teams survive the initial seeding to get to the final four and the stats show that.

if you ran a computer program that swapped the seeds so that a 15 became a 2 seed, i think it would show even a 15 seed got to the final four 2-3x as often as it would as a 15 seed. its a self rewarding prophecy.. but you need to play well to get the seed too.
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True. Nobody should knock Kansas or Arizona's whole body of work with Self or Miller. There were a few years also where the Big 12 was loaded with Iowa St, Texas, Kansas St, Baylor, Oklahoma, OSU all solid. Kansas and Arizona also play BIG non-conference slates. Kansas especially. Put Arizona or Kansas in the ACC and they still do well. Upper 1/4 of the league and/or 4-5 losses, IMO.
 
two3zone said:
Franklin Howard and Kaleb Joseph were both top 100 players and both look like they wouldn't start on a great high school team. How's that not a recruiting issue? Those are big time misses, we haven't had a point guard since Ennis was here.
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I like Gillon and pushing the tempo when he is on. Sometimes Ennis put me to sleep in spite of his talent.
 
two3zone said:
Really?

Kansas has been to the elite 8 4 times in the past 10 years and was in the final four in 2012, and haven't missed the tournament since 1989 and have 203 wins and 43 losses this decade. You think we've been better?

No, I said we've been to 2 Final Fours in the last 4 years. Kansas has been to zero Final Four's in the last 4 years. And they get a ton more talent and play in a weaker conference.

Enough with comparing us to Kansas, at the end of the day most teams in a P5 confrence deals with early departures, we're not the only ones, we had sanctions, well, kinda our fault, and there are great conferences out there.

I used Kansas because they are a blue blood, get much better recruits and still find it hard to have success in March. We've done it, which means we should appreciate how hard it is. Wanna use Michigan State instead?

I don't believe our final fours were flukes, but I don't think UConn's titles are flukes either, but using the final fours the past few years don't put us above a Kansas or any other school that hasn't been to as many in as many years, if it did don't you think kids would be lining up to play for us? Hate to break it to you, they're not.

UConn won 2 titles since 2009. Anyone lining up to play for them?

Recruiting has not been at the level it was in the late 00s and early 10s and we're missing almost as much as we're hitting with these guys. If you can't see that trend I don't know what to tell you. We can either hold on to our precious final fours or we can look at reality which says we're not nearly as talented as we were at the beginning of the decade and try to figure out what's wrong.

So recruiting stinks and we are still going to Final Fours? Sign me up for more crappy recruiting. How do we keep putting kids in the NBA? Get a grip dude.
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SoBeCuse said:
True. Nobody should knock Kansas or Arizona's whole body of work with Self or Miller. There were a few years also where the Big 12 was loaded with Iowa St, Texas, Kansas St, Baylor, Oklahoma, OSU all solid. Kansas and Arizona also play BIG non-conference slates. Kansas especially. Put Arizona or Kansas in the ACC and they still do well. Upper 1/4 of the league and/or 4-5 losses, IMO.
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Nobody was knocking Arizona or Kansas' body of work. Just pointing out how hard it is to make a FF, let alone 2 in four years. Both of those programs recruit at a much higher level than Syracuse. Why are they not getting to FF's? We are, with poor recruiting, right? And a coach that has the game that has passed him by. :)
 
two3zone said:
Franklin Howard and Kaleb Joseph were both top 100 players and both look like they wouldn't start on a great high school team. How's that not a recruiting issue? Those are big time misses, we haven't had a point guard since Ennis was here.
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Howard is only a sophomore and still could be a good player. Joseph was recruited by Uconn and several other strong programs. So Syracuse wasn't the only team that was wrong on him.
 
AlpharettaCuse said:
Lol. That Virgina team sure looked slow and unathletic on all those dunks.
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Yeah, I thought the Cardinal's walk-ons they had to play tonight in lieu of the two suspended players in addition to the two injured ones would be able to more than hold their own. ;)
 
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OttoMets said:
But it was the press (and Malachi's scoring) that earned a Final Four last season. Before that we were dead in the water. 100% zone would have had us losing to Virginia, ending the season with an exciting trip to the regional final but no Final Four.
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True the press helped in both the Virgina game, but it wasn't the only reason we won. The zone was excellent in the 2nd half (just like this year) and was great against Dayton, something Tennessee State and Gonzaga.
 
orangecuse said:
Yeah, I thought the Cardinal's walk-ons they had to play tonight in lieu of the two suspended players along with the two injured ones would be able to more than hold their own. ;)
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cuz yeah Mitchell/Johnson/King/Mamoud/Spalding just isn't enough to contend with an unathletic team
 
SoBeCuse said:
Point guard. You can't go 3-4 recruiting classes and not find a serviceable PG at a program like Syracuse. That's a problem, obviously.
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Flynn, MCW, Ennis...boom, boom, boom, Ennis leaves early. A lot of programs thought Joseph was good. He didn't work out. Howard showed promise as a freshman and sophomore. He's just a sophomore. Gillon is doing a nice job in his 1 year, and G took us to a FF. I think JB has done a good job with what he has.
 
orangecuse said:
Nope, I didn't. But just as we appear to be a different team now than the one we were against St. John's and the likes, so is Louisville...when healthy and their full array of players.
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So the healthy Louisville team got dunked on by Virginia too?
 
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