Jerry says we have the 15th best class

[Fly Rodder]

Ok so lets get this straight. We CAN use the small sample size to call him out and say he basically sucks, but we CANNOT use the small sample size to point out how he had a good defensive advanced stat.

Ok I see. Anything that backs up the narrative that Chukwu and FH sucks is legit. But anything that shows they did better than what is being said is just a small sample size and does not count.

Ok gotcha!

I didn't say that, but if you're going to cherry pick the stats to make your case that he's fantastic, then make sure to include the bad with the good. I wouldn't use per 40 at all to make argument with someone who had limited minutes in only 7 games. The per 40 stat distorts and magnifies any anomalies.

I'm not saying Chukwu can't be a defensive presence, but he has some definite warts to overcome it remains to be seen.

 

[iommi]

I didn't say that, but if you're going to cherry pick the stats to make your case that he's fantastic, then make sure to include the bad with the good. I wouldn't use per 40 at all to make argument with someone who had limited minutes in only 7 games. The per 40 stat distorts and magnifies any anomalies.

I'm not saying Chukwu can't be a defensive presence, but he has some definite warts to overcome it remains to be seen.

JB actually used the per 40 BPG stat when referencing PC. I didn't agree with it but he used it to bolster his argument about why we'd have been a tourney team if not for a few bad breaks.

 

[Funk Doc]

Yeah but give the guy a break. He never had full support at the PG spot. He was looking over his shoulder constantly. Boeheim got in his head just like he did with Roberson.
If he can go in next season as the guy and have some rope I believe he can be really good at dishing the ball and racking up steals.

Oh I am with you. I'm in the minority(it seems) with you, that I actually feel Frank has potential. Would I like another guard(very much so), but for some reason, I don't hate the idea that Frank could be our starting PG next year(again, in the minority with that). Over the last two years, there are some very solid plays. He just needs to be more consistent.

 

[RealMcNeil]

Again, his stats were inflated against weak competition. He was awful in ACC play, one of the worst guards in the conference.

His stats in conference aren't nearly as bad as your post suggests. I'm torn on Howard because I think, given a shot at redemption, he has the potential to be productive alongside Battle and more dynamic forwards. If he cuts down his TOV%, I think he can be a solid if not plus defender and distributor.

 

[Fly Rodder]

JB actually used the per 40 BPG stat when referencing PC. I didn't agree with it but he used it to bolster his argument about why we'd have been a tourney team if not for a few bad breaks.

For blocks sure, which like you or Jordoo posted, he's going to get 2-3 a game usually on account of being 7'2". It's the rest of his basketball game that needs improvements.

 

[chugg21]

Ok so lets get this straight. We CAN use the small sample size to call him out and say he basically sucks, but we CANNOT use the small sample size to point out how he had a good defensive advanced stat.

Ok I see. Anything that backs up the narrative that Chukwu and FH sucks is legit. But anything that shows they did better than what is being said is just a small sample size and does not count.

Ok gotcha!

Why is the word narrative being used again when in fact both players were horribly disappointing last year. I won't say sucked because its not appropriate. Its like narrative is the new magic word on the board to just try to make peoples opinions which are certainly more in line with reality disappear.

 

[jordoo]

Ok so lets get this straight. We CAN use the small sample size to call him out and say he basically sucks, but we CANNOT use the small sample size to point out how he had a good defensive advanced stat.

Ok I see. Anything that backs up the narrative that Chukwu and FH sucks is legit. But anything that shows they did better than what is being said is just a small sample size and does not count.

Ok gotcha!

No people are saying small sample size of statistical data are not overly accurate. Also that the competition level is a much more important when analyzing stats. We are all using what we saw first and our over all knowledge of basketball and SU over time. Statistics are good indicators but they don't show they aren't the end all and be all. Most posters here saw Chukwu as a big tall guy that didn't know how to play and Howard as a guy who could play a bit but certainly couldn't play PG against ACC level competition. That IMO is a fair evaluation of what we saw regardless of stats.

I also concede that both could improve a lot as happens with many college players. I have given reasons why I am skeptical in both situations as have many. Everyone here would love to see Frank and Chukwu be the plays you are envisioning this year. Realistically we are not expecting it and don't want the coaches to count on it without having other legit options.

 

[jordoo]

I had nightmares last year of PC running (more like flailing) toward mid court during our press, instead of guarding the basket. That was so cringe-inducing. I've never seen someone so inept at that back of any press.

Something that they surely worked on plenty with him leading into the season.

 

[Grbac]

No people are saying small sample size of statistical data are not overly accurate. Also that the competition level is a much more important when analyzing stats. We are all using what we saw first and our over all knowledge of basketball and SU over time. Statistics are good indicators but they don't show they aren't the end all and be all. Most posters here saw Chukwu as a big tall guy that didn't know how to play and Howard as a guy who could play a but certainly couldn't play PG against ACC level competition. That IMO is a fair evaluation of what we saw regardless of stats.

I also concede that both could improve a lot as happens with many college players. I have given reasons why I am skeptical in both situations as have many. Everyone here would love to see Frank and Chukwu be the plays you are envisioning this year. Realistically we are not expecting it and don't want the coaches to count on it without having other legit options.[/QUOTE]

That is very fair.

I am coming from a more statistical approach. While you guys are using the old eyeball test. You actually need a bit of both to be fair.

But I am coming from a position of being very positive about what we look like right now. So I am trying to show you guys why I think that way. Obviously it is not working lol. But that is ok. We all have our own opinions.

I could be very very wrong and FH and PC could be disasters. Get parked on the bench and never heard from again. Hopefully not.

Only way we will know is when the ball is finally tipped off to start the season.

If my predictions ring true...yay for all of us SU fans. If not, well I will come back on here and eat my words and tell you all that I was wrong.

 

[GooseMutt]

No doubt. I'm just at the show me stage with him and Howard for that matter. At least Howard showed some D1 skills and abilities. Not so much PG skills and abilities but he certainly showed enough that I could see him becoming a legit D1 player at some point. As you mentioned above Chukwu showed that he was 7'2" that is it.

Roberson gone if frank doesn't perform "Hello new whipping boy"

 

[iommi]

Roberson gone if frank doesn't perform "Hello new whipping boy"

Maybe but JB did go out of his way to say positive things about him after last year. I'm sure that was meant as a confidence booster but still. I'd say TT because of his defense but his offense is needed so direly that he can't beat him up too much.

I do think you're right, it could be FH. He will be an upperclassmen; he should know what is expected of him by now.

 

[Jasoncuse]

His stats in conference aren't nearly as bad as your post suggests. I'm torn on Howard because I think, given a shot at redemption, he has the potential to be productive alongside Battle and more dynamic forwards. If he cuts down his TOV%, I think he can be a solid if not plus defender and distributor.

Frank averaged 2.6 pts, shot 33% from the field, 25% from 3, had 1.8 assists and 1.3 TO's per game against ACC teams. I'm not sure how much worse they can get...

 

[Grbac]

Maybe but JB did go out of his way to say positive things about him after last year. I'm sure that was meant as a confidence booster but still. I'd say TT because of his defense but his offense is needed so direly that he can't beat him up too much.

I do think you're right, it could be FH. He will be an upperclassmen; he should know what is expected of him by now.

It got to be comical at some points, like if Roberson took any shots, any whatsoever other than a dunk. Boeheim had steam coming from his ears. Like come on he just took a shot haha.
I would say having those crazy eyes staring at you and getting your ear holes filled with Boeheim spit would effect anyone.

 

[Grbac]

Frank averaged 2.6 pts, shot 33% from the field, 25% from 3, had 1.8 assists and 1.3 TO's per game against ACC teams. I'm not sure how much worse they can get...

10pts 7ast 4reb 2stl...his per 40 conference stats.
13pts 6ast 5reb 3stl...MCW per 40 conference stats.

Hate to keep going with the per 40 but it shows production rates. And I compare FH with MCW.

 

[iommi]

It got to be comical at some points, like if Roberson took any shots, any whatsoever other than a dunk. Boeheim had steam coming from his ears. Like come on he just took a shot haha.
I would say having those crazy eyes staring at you and getting your ear holes filled with Boeheim spit would effect anyone.

It was so odd with Roberson. He was a frustrating player for sure but JB had to realize his tactics weren't working. I don't get why JB insisted on tearing him down to sawdust. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall for any conversations between JB and TR's parents on Senior Day.

 

[Grbac]

It was so odd with Roberson. He was a frustrating player for sure but JB had to realize his tactics weren't working. I don't get why JB insisted on tearing him down to sawdust. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall for any conversations between JB and TR's parents on Senior Day.

Yeah I had big hopes for Roberson. He had the physical tools. Good strong long body. Showed a little mid range game that I thought could come together his senior year. He just played like he was so timid to do anything wrong.
Oh boy as a parent I would not be a Boeheim fan. Depending on his parents temperment may have been one to watch.

 

[Day2]

You have to have some balance. Thompson at Center full time exposes us on defense. We have no rim defender when he is in.
Having an oustanding zone is first and foremost. Chukwu changes the game. No more backdoor cuts behind the zone that destroyed us last season. Chukwu takes that away.

Thompson is better suited as PF where he can score at will and have Chukwu to help hide his defense.

My lineup is the most experienced and zone ready players. Again it is just my opinion though.

Yeah but give the guy a break. He never had full support at the PG spot. He was looking over his shoulder constantly. Boeheim got in his head just like he did with Roberson.
If he can go in next season as the guy and have some rope I believe he can be really good at dishing the ball and racking up steals.

You're right, people should cut Howard some slack and give him another chance. You should do the same with Thompson.

 

[RealMcNeil]

Frank averaged 2.6 pts, shot 33% from the field, 25% from 3, had 1.8 assists and 1.3 TO's per game against ACC teams. I'm not sure how much worse they can get...

All on an upward trajectory from the year prior, too. I never suggested he is, or will be, a great shooter or prolific scorer.

FH had an AST% of >30%, STL% > 3% and TRB% >7%. All in conference.

He is not without flaw, namely TOV% and EFG%, but like I said in my previous post, I think he benefits the most from a new set of more dynamic forwards (see: MM, OB and/or MD). Roberson, AWIII, and Lydon to a lesser extent weren't the most mobile off the ball.

 

[OrangeDW]

How I see the roster shaking out as is.
Starters

Howard 10pts 8ast 4reb 2stl
Battle 18pts 3reb 2ast
Moyer 11pts 5reb
Thompson 18pts 6reb
Chukwu 4pts 7reb 3blk

Bench

Washington 3pts 2ast
Dolezaj 4pts 4reb
Brisset 5pts 4reb
Sidibe 6pts 3reb

Looks good to me. Just short another guard. Anything happens to any of our guards and we are super screwed at this point.

Sherman Douglas is the only SU PG that I can remember ever averaging 8 assists per game, and he was arguably our best PG ever, that played with multiple studs(Coleman, Seikaly, Owens, Thompson, etc.) in an era where we pushed the tempo and scored a ton in transition. He graduated as the all time NCAA assists leader.

Frank Howard probably isn't averaging 8 assists per game next year.

 

[pfister1]

How I see the roster shaking out as is.
Starters

Howard 10pts 8ast 4reb 2stl
Battle 18pts 3reb 2ast
Moyer 11pts 5reb
Thompson 18pts 6reb
Chukwu 4pts 7reb 3blk

Bench

Washington 3pts 2ast
Dolezaj 4pts 4reb
Brisset 5pts 4reb
Sidibe 6pts 3reb

Looks good to me. Just short another guard. Anything happens to any of our guards and we are super screwed at this point.

I'd be willing to bet next years' salary that Chukwu won't average both 3 blocks per game and 7 rebounds per game. Fab Melo who was considered a very good defensive center his sophomore year didn't do that.

 

[jordoo]

It got to be comical at some points, like if Roberson took any shots, any whatsoever other than a dunk. Boeheim had steam coming from his ears. Like come on he just took a shot haha.
I would say having those crazy eyes staring at you and getting your ear holes filled with Boeheim spit would effect anyone.

Last season every single time Roberson took a jumper and missed he was pulled at the next dead ball. JB fumed because he had told him for 4 years to work 10' and in.

 

[jordoo]

10pts 7ast 4reb 2stl...his per 40 conference stats.
13pts 6ast 5reb 3stl...MCW per 40 conference stats.

Hate to keep going with the per 40 but it shows production rates. And I compare FH with MCW.

And this is exactly why stats can be misleading. No way Frank plays 40 min when he would have to take 16 shots to get his 10pts and makes 6 turnovers to his 7 assists. JB is not letting that happen.

 

[chugg21]

Sherman Douglas is the only SU PG that I can remember ever averaging 8 assists per game, and he was arguably our best PG ever, that played with multiple studs(Coleman, Seikaly, Owens, Thompson, etc.) in an era where we pushed the tempo and scored a ton in transition. He graduated as the all time NCAA assists leader.

Frank Howard probably isn't averaging 8 assists per game next year.

I don't think its going out on a limb to say there's a better chance of him not finishing the season on the roster than averaging 8 apg.

 

[jordoo]

It was so odd with Roberson. He was a frustrating player for sure but JB had to realize his tactics weren't working. I don't get why JB insisted on tearing him down to sawdust. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall for any conversations between JB and TR's parents on Senior Day.

It was frustrating. I think JB saw a kid that could be successful at the college level rebounding, hustling, attacking the basket from 10' off one dribble, maybe learning a couple post moves and getting put backs. I seems on Roberson's side there was always an emphasis on playing on the perimeter and expanding his game to have a chance at the NBA. JB probably realized early on that wasn't going to happen.

 

[Grbac]

I'd be willing to bet next years' salary that Chukwu won't average both 3 blocks per game and 7 rebounds per game. Fab Melo who was considered a very good defensive center his sophomore year didn't do that.

Darryl Watkins did it almost twice.