Juwan Howard

[CardiacCuse]

The concept of mortgaging the future and putting all your chips in and going for it while you have a superstar is not exclusive to LeBron.

The Cavs have their only title in franchise history because of LeBron, and the Lakers also won another title with LeBron.

yeah its def not only lebron that does this...but to me he kinda ushered in the current era in the league (which I am not a fan of)...a la "The Decision"...forming "Super teams" around "stars" ...and small market teams thus being basically irrelevant in the current NBA...so he bears some responsibility for the current popularity of this method, imo.

He didnt really win until he got to be with a collection of other superstars on his team (and hasnt without that since) ...spanked by the spurs, mavs (and later warriors even with his "star teams"...1-3 vs the warriors in the finals and lucky to get that 1, imo)...who all built teams mostly the traditional way...and have done it through loyalty and building sustainably through the draft and player development.

How many players have really developed and become something by playing with LeBron? all the young talent he plays with gets shipped or hates him (a la Kyrie)...I'd hate to be a draft pick to a LeBron team.

 

[HOFCeluck]

yeah its def not only lebron that does this...but to me he kinda ushered in the current era in the league (which I am not a fan of)...a la "The Decision"...forming "Super teams" around "stars" ...and small market teams thus being basically irrelevant in the current NBA...so he bears some responsibility for the current popularity of this method, imo.

Small market teams are quite irrelevant. We’re a whole eleven months removed from a small market team winning it all.

He didnt really win until he got to be with a collection of other superstars on his team (and hasnt without that since) ...spanked by the spurs, mavs (and later warriors even with his "star teams"...1-3 vs the warriors in the finals and lucky to get that 1, imo)...who all built teams mostly the traditional way...and have done it through loyalty and building sustainably through the draft and player development.

How many of those Finals series was Lebron team the favorite? 2011 and…?

It was lucky in 2016 when Lebron won. But in 2015 when it was just Lebron against the Warriors that was just the Cavs getting “spanked.” And LOL at hyping Jordan and then dismissing Lebron because he had a “collection of other superstars.” Tell me again how many of those titles Jordan won without another HOFer?

 

[OrangeDW]

Small market teams are quite irrelevant. We’re a whole eleven months removed from a small market team winning it all.



It was lucky in 2016 when Lebron won. But in 2015 when it was just Lebron against the Warriors that was just the Cavs getting “spanked.” And LOL at hyping Jordan and then dismissing Lebron because he had a “collection of other superstars.” Tell me again how many of those titles Jordan won without another HOFer?

Right. I was rooting for GS, but remember feeling if Kyrie didn’t get hurt, then Cleveland probably wins in 2015.

I thought about replying to all the things I disagreed with there, but got overwhelmed and gave up. Glad you took the lead, lol.

 

[two3zone]

Well, he didn’t lose. LeBron has with better teams before, and that’s my point.

I’m not sure Lebron has played on a team as stacked as the Bulls.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I would say a big part of GSWs 17 and 18 Finals was something a little bigger than developing talent and building through the draft, but I can’t quite put my finger on it….I think it has something to do with passive aggressive Twitter posts. Oh well, it’ll come to me.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I’m not sure Lebron has played on a team as stacked as the Bulls.

The Heat were stacked. Wade is better all time over Pippen. He won a title without Lebron as the lead guy.

 

[OrangeDW]

I’m not sure Lebron has played on a team as stacked as the Bulls.

Agreed as far as the Bulls at their best.

However, easy to forget how pedestrian Pippen was and washed Rodman was by the end of ‘98. Jordan was Superman there. Unreal how he just flat out won game 6 at the end too.

 

[OrangeDW]

The Heat were stacked. Wade is better all time over Pippen. He won a title without Lebron as the lead guy.

Wade vs. Pippen is an interesting one.

Wade a better scorer and thus lead guy.

Pip probably a better complimentary superstar and thus better fit by a guy like Jordan.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Wade vs. Pippen is an interesting one.

Wade a better scorer and thus lead guy.

Pip probably a better complimentary superstar and thus better fit by a guy like Jordan.

Fair enough. I don’t think people appreciate Wade enough. He won a scoring title and had a higher career PER and win shares per minute for his career than Pippen. He also has better career playoff stats.

Pippen was a great player, but I always see a bunch of Lebron stans hyping him up to try and make their point Lebron was better. At no point in his career could he have done anything peak Wade did.

 

[OrangeDW]

Fair enough. I don’t think people appreciate Wade enough. He won a scoring title and had a higher career PER and win shares per minute for his career than Pippen. He also has better career playoff stats.

Pippen was a great player, but I always see a bunch of Lebron stans hyping him up to try and make their point Lebron was better. At no point in his career could he have done anything peak Wade did.

That 2006 Heat run seems to be widely overlooked and forgotten, which is weird because Wade was insane in those playoffs.

 

[TheHaze315]

I’m not sure Lebron has played on a team as stacked as the Bulls.

Absolutely never has. Reading his comment made me laugh. The things people will do to discredit Lebron James is unbelievable.

 

[bpo57]

I'm reading about the Bulls and their stacked lineups and that made me think of some of those stalwarts that MJ played with like BJ Armstrong, Bill Wennington, Will Perdue, Luc Longley, Steve Kerr, John Paxson et al. Jordan also won three titles without Rodman.

 

[two3zone]

The Heat were stacked. Wade is better all time over Pippen. He won a title without Lebron as the lead guy.

But with Shaq. Don’t know, I think Pip was better than Wade, close, but Pippen is criminally underrated.

 

[two3zone]

I'm reading about the Bulls and their stacked lineups and that made me think of some of those stalwarts that MJ played with like BJ Armstrong, Bill Wennington, Will Perdue, Luc Longley, Steve Kerr, John Paxson et al. Jordan also won three titles without Rodman.

Paxson and Armstrong were legit.

 

[Cusefan0307]

But with Shaq. Don’t know, I think Pip was better than Wade, close, but Pippen is criminally underrated.

Wade averaged 35 ppg in that finals. Pippen was never doing that. Wades numbers are better than Pippens across the board and he was a 12 time all star while Pippen made it 7 times. Bosh was an 11 time all star. I’m not sure why we are pretending that Heat team from 2010-2014 wasn’t a super team.

I‘ve come to appreciate Lebron more that I’ve got older, but he still got shut down by geriatric Jason Kidd in the 2011 finals. I do think the teams Lebron had to face were better than anything Jordan saw, but we are splitting hairs here.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Small market teams are quite irrelevant. We’re a whole eleven months removed from a small market team winning it all.



How many of those Finals series was Lebron team the favorite? 2011 and…?

It was lucky in 2016 when Lebron won. But in 2015 when it was just Lebron against the Warriors that was just the Cavs getting “spanked.” And LOL at hyping Jordan and then dismissing Lebron because he had a “collection of other superstars.” Tell me again how many of those titles Jordan won without another HOFer?

He was the favorite in every series in Miami.

It was appropriate Golden State and Cleveland split in 2015 and 2016. Draymond being an idiot and getting suspended for hitting Lebron in the nuts made up for Kyrie getting hurt the prior season. And Kevin Love made more all star games than anyone Jordan played with besides Pippen. These are the players he wanted.

 

[TheHaze315]

Wade averaged 35 ppg in that finals. Pippen was never doing that. Wades numbers are better than Pippens across the board and he was a 12 time all star while Pippen made it 7 times. Bosh was an 11 time all star. I’m not sure why we are pretending that Heat team from 2010-2014 wasn’t a super team.

I‘ve come to appreciate Lebron more that I’ve got older, but he still got shut down by geriatric Jason Kidd in the 2011 finals. I do think the teams Lebron had to face were better than anything Jordan saw, but we are splitting hairs here.

If Michael Jordan played the teams Lebron did, he’s not 6-0 in the finals. The Warriors teams Lebron had to go against would beat Jordan’s Bulls any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Lebron James has one blemish on his resume and that’s the Mavericks series, Jordan fans have to hold onto that series for dear life to try and find logic behind saying Jordan is better than Lebron. Jordan fans always sway back to the 6-0 argument because that’s all they can cling onto, but again, if Jordan went up against the teams Lebron did, that precious 6-0 record is gone. In what world is getting outed before the finals better than getting to the finals? all 6-0 in the finals means is that MJ got outed before the finals more than Lebron. If Lebron was only 4-0 I bet you’d view him differently even though it would mean he’d have been to 6 LESS FINALS! Lebron went to the finals 8 consecutive times, and has been there 10 overall. That is dominance. You can’t fault Lebron for doing everything in his power to win and having his team come up short in the finals. In the 2015 finals Lebron averaged 35ppg 13rpg and 9ast. In 2017 he averaged 34ppg 12rpg and 10ast. in 2018 he averaged 34ppg 9rpg and 10ast. Basketball is a team sport and Lebrons TEAM was an underdog in 7 of 10 finals appearances.

 

[Cusefan0307]

If Michael Jordan played the teams Lebron did, he’s not 6-0 in the finals. The Warriors teams Lebron had to go against would beat Jordan’s Bulls any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Lebron James has one blemish on his resume and that’s the Mavericks series, Jordan fans have to hold onto that series for dear life to try and find logic behind saying Jordan is better than Lebron. Jordan fans always sway back to the 6-0 argument because that’s all they can cling onto, but again, if Jordan went up against the teams Lebron did, that precious 6-0 record is gone. In what world is getting outed before the finals better than getting to the finals? all 6-0 in the finals means is that MJ got outed before the finals more than Lebron. If Lebron was only 4-0 I bet you’d view him differently even though it would mean he’d have been to 6 LESS FINALS! Lebron went to the finals 8 consecutive times, and has been there 10 overall. That is dominance. You can’t fault Lebron for doing everything in his power to win and having his team come up short in the finals. In the 2015 finals Lebron averaged 35ppg 13rpg and 9ast. In 2017 he averaged 34ppg 12rpg and 10ast. in 2018 he averaged 34ppg 9rpg and 10ast. Basketball is a team sport and Lebrons TEAM was an underdog in 7 of 10 finals appearances.

I’m not talking down Lebron at all. You stans get too sensitive about this. I’ve already said his teams had to go against better team than Jordan, but saying the Heat weren’t a super team is false.

 

[Melancer46]

Yeah. I’m thinking hard to come up with an NBA champion in my lifetime that didn’t have at least 2 great players.

‘94 Rockets is probably the weakest supporting cast(IMO) off the top of my head.

They’re definitely out there. Dirk’s #2 guy was his 6th man. One of Duncan’s titles was basically just him because Robinson wasn’t the guy anymore and Parker/Ginobili weren’t good yet.

 

[bpo57]

Paxson and Armstrong were legit.

Sure. They could knock down open shots created by all of the attention given to Jordan.

 

[bpo57]

Wade averaged 35 ppg in that finals. Pippen was never doing that. Wades numbers are better than Pippens across the board and he was a 12 time all star while Pippen made it 7 times. Bosh was an 11 time all star. I’m not sure why we are pretending that Heat team from 2010-2014 wasn’t a super team.

I‘ve come to appreciate Lebron more that I’ve got older, but he still got shut down by geriatric Jason Kidd in the 2011 finals. I do think the teams Lebron had to face were better than anything Jordan saw, but we are splitting hairs here.

Agree with all of that except for MJ facing the Pistons in his early years. That team was very legit.

 

[Newhouser]

That 2006 Heat run seems to be widely overlooked and forgotten, which is weird because Wade was insane in those playoffs.

Wade got the friendliest whistle in the history of the league in those Finals. He was great but that series was taken from the Mavs.

 

[MikeSU02]

They’re definitely out there. Dirk’s #2 guy was his 6th man. One of Duncan’s titles was basically just him because Robinson wasn’t the guy anymore and Parker/Ginobili weren’t good yet.

2003 Duncan was Superman.

 

[two3zone]

Sure. They could knock down open shots created by all of the attention given to Jordan.

Isn’t that the point of the game?

 

[RF2044]

If Michael Jordan played the teams Lebron did, he’s not 6-0 in the finals. The Warriors teams Lebron had to go against would beat Jordan’s Bulls any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Lebron James has one blemish on his resume and that’s the Mavericks series, Jordan fans have to hold onto that series for dear life to try and find logic behind saying Jordan is better than Lebron. Jordan fans always sway back to the 6-0 argument because that’s all they can cling onto, but again, if Jordan went up against the teams Lebron did, that precious 6-0 record is gone. In what world is getting outed before the finals better than getting to the finals? all 6-0 in the finals means is that MJ got outed before the finals more than Lebron. If Lebron was only 4-0 I bet you’d view him differently even though it would mean he’d have been to 6 LESS FINALS! Lebron went to the finals 8 consecutive times, and has been there 10 overall. That is dominance. You can’t fault Lebron for doing everything in his power to win and having his team come up short in the finals. In the 2015 finals Lebron averaged 35ppg 13rpg and 9ast. In 2017 he averaged 34ppg 12rpg and 10ast. in 2018 he averaged 34ppg 9rpg and 10ast. Basketball is a team sport and Lebrons TEAM was an underdog in 7 of 10 finals appearances.

And LeBron never had to face the type of defense that Jordan was subjected to. The rules have changed dramatically to benefit offensive play.

Given how Jordan produced offensively, what more would he be able to do with the rules accommodating unrestricted movement the way they are now?