Look How Many Bench Players NC State has on the court

[Henny & Coke]

Talent is far different than being ready to play. Tyler Ennis was ready. I mean we start 2 Sophs and a freshman. Jb plays guys that are ready.

You don't have any problem with not playing "our most talented player" in games throughout the season in the hopes that it gets him ready for the games that count most, in March?

(So we don't have to watch Keita, who I do love btw, play 19 mins against NC State and produce all of 2 points, 3 rebounds, 0 assists, 0 steals, 1 block & 1 turnover? And he played half the game! And if he's hurt? All the more reason to get our most talented players ready for March!)

 

[AZOrange]

You don't have any problem with not playing "our most talented player" in games throughout the season in the hopes that it gets him ready for the games that count most, in March? (So we don't have to watch Keita, who I do love btw, play 19 mins against NC State and produce all of 2 points, 3 rebounds, 0 assists, 0 steals, 1 block & 1 turnover? And he played half the game! And if he's hurt? All the more reason to get our most talented players ready for March!)

I did have the hope he'd be ready by now. But I guess the games and hundreds of practices didn't get him there.
I don't get the keita point at all. Keita isn't keeping him off the court. Jb isn't moving grant to the 5 if keita is walking

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I agree with a lot of the wish we played more bench sentiment. Henny makes some very good points, in a constructive way. And I somewhat buy into the arguments that just because it has always been is no reason not to change. Change and flexibility in life is always important, and good. But yes, the zone is a little more complicated. And at this point I put my trust in the fact that coach does not think they can handle it as well in the big game situations. And I vote YES I wish we played the freshman more, but the larger point is that it is not going to happen, at least not this year, so after this post I am done with the discussion. So I am going to root for this team as we go forward, and I am going to choose to believe that we get our 25-0 swagger back and make a nice run. If I choose Orange glasses it is because I happen to own a pair from Manny's.

I think JB has changed. The token starter - new. Just two years ago, JB had played his 4th guard 10 mpg's. Last year we used 8. JB, IMO, isn't playing a short bench because of the argument that he always has. It is player dependent. If Roberson was as good as Grant was last year (in JBs eyes) he would have seen more time.

IMO, a lot of people can't accept that Roberson is behind. If he wasn't JB would certainly have given him minutes, especially when Grant (and DC2) were hurt.

And lastly for all those who wished he played the frosh more, at what cost? I really don't think anyone would like it if they all played tons but we were in the NIT. What about at the expense of Buffalo?

 

[Ghost]

I don't know what he was predicting, but I know I wasn't predicting the team to be struggling going into the tournament losing 5 out of 7. Last year they struggled down the stretch in the regular season, but got momentum going in the Big East tournament. I think he has a very legitimate concern with lack of depth and players being tired... Look at CJ's defensive effort down the stretch of some games. Against NC State there were possessions where he barely moved on the defensive end. Thier are many ways to get players some breathers... A quick sub out before a media timeout is usually a way for a nice break.
Just cause this poster doesn't have a ton of posts doesn't mean he can't share his opinion and be objective. He wasn't bashing players or being a jerk. This is the reason why I'm more or a reader on this board and not a volume poster...just not always worth it to post your opinions

I think this is the point most people should focus on. Obviously 18-22 years have tons of energy, but to think they don't wear down a little, even with timeouts, is a tough one. Those little breaks allow them to watch the game, observe a little, and hopefully come back in with a full tank of gas.

 

[OttoMets]

I think this is the point most people should focus on. Obviously 18-22 years have tons of energy, but to think they don't wear down a little, even with timeouts, is a tough one. Those little breaks allow them to watch the game, observe a little, and hopefully come back in with a full tank of gas.

And these players can't be evaluated in isolation.

Even if Fair happens to be a special athlete who doesn't get tired, he's not going to be as effective playing 40 minutes when his defender is only playing 36.

 

[Henny & Coke]

I think JB has changed. The token starter - new. Just two years ago, JB had played his 4th guard 10 mpg's. Last year we used 8. JB, IMO, isn't playing a short bench because of the argument that he always has. It is player dependent. If Roberson was as good as Grant was last year (in JBs eyes) he would have seen more time.

IMO, a lot of people can't accept that Roberson is behind. If he wasn't JB would certainly have given him minutes, especially when Grant (and DC2) were hurt.

And lastly for all those who wished he played the frosh more, at what cost? I really don't think anyone would like it if they all played tons but we were in the NIT. What about at the expense of Buffalo?

Hey Sgt,

Glad you brought up Michael Carter-Williams (by inference, when you mentioned "Just two years ago, JB had played his 4th guard 10 mpg's")

I was a little shocked to see MCW played that many MPG too when I looked...but it's misleading, since he only played in 26 of the 37 games. His total minutes were still only 269, a little less than 4 times as many as Scoop played that year.

But, since we talking about MCW, I have to admit, I still find it odd he was only able to get 269 minutes of playing time that year. Now, it's more due to a slightly different issue - JB "rewarding" program guys like Scoop & Triche with more playing time - but still sort of related, in fact that we will never know how that season may have ended had JB played MCW more minutes. Maybe MCW has a great NCAA Tournament that year, similar to last year?

All I know is, MCW went from:

2010-2011 - High School Senior, rated 4th best SG (ESPN) recruit, McDonalds All American, who also won the McDonald's Skills Competition for Guards.

To:

2011-2012 - Getting only 269 minutes of playing time (playing only 26 of 37 games) while Freshmen at SU - mostly because Scoop, Triche and Dion were playing in front of him - but also partly because of JB's hesitation to play Freshmen (or more talented, but less experienced players) unless he absolutely has to.

To:

2012-2013 - Playing tons of minutes as Soph, setting SU single-season record for most steals in a season, and having 2nd most assists in a season while leading SU to the Final Four.

To:

2013-2014 - Probable front-runner to be selected as NBA Rookie of the Year.

So he went from great in 2010-11, to being only good enough to earn 269 minutes in 2011-12, back to being great again in the two seasons after...

 

[Ghost]

Actually, JB DID find minutes for him (he started one game) but found him lacking. If he's the best of the bench, then any minutes given to any of the lesser freshman would have been wasted and probably harmful.

JB is stubborn and there's some reason to believe that things might be better if he'd used his bench more. Even so, there isn't a single person here who knows enough to have an informed opinion. For those spouting off, please spare us your c0ck-sure attitude on this topic.

You're citing a situation where JB was essentially forced to play him (starting against G-Tech). Again, if he was so lacking in practice and overall ability, did JB lose his mind against Duke the first time we played him? He almost blew our undefeated season obviously with that insanity.

He was worth 5 minutes that game. Was that a poor decision by JB playing someone clearly not ready to play in our biggest game to date.

Again, it's not about thinking these kids are ready to play big minutes - it's about whether or not you think getting these kids in the game for a few minutes here or there will help CJ, JG, TC be more effective players. Again, they would be the energy guys off the bench. G is not an energy guy. He slows the team down even more if anything. Baye is an energy guy.

If you think running the starters out for as close to 40 minutes a game as possible maximizes our chances at winning, or playing G (who doesn't seem all that ready to me either) down low makes sense, then there you go. But as someone else mentioned, the CJ we saw through the first 20 games, the one that was money down the stretch has given way to a CJ that hasn't been very effective down the stretch over the last group of games. His defense has been poor, and he's not hitting shots that he used to hit at a very high clip.

Maybe it's tired legs, maybe it's just bad luck. Who knows.

 

[kuethstheman]

You're citing a situation where JB was essentially forced to play him (starting against G-Tech). Again, if he was so lacking in practice and overall ability, did JB lose his mind against Duke the first time we played him? He almost blew our undefeated season obviously with that insanity.

He was worth 5 minutes that game. Was that a poor decision by JB playing someone clearly not ready to play in our biggest game to date.

Again, it's not about thinking these kids are ready to play big minutes - it's about whether or not you think getting these kids in the game for a few minutes here or there will help CJ, JG, TC be more effective players. Again, they would be the energy guys off the bench. G is not an energy guy. He slows the team down even more if anything. Baye is an energy guy.

If you think running the starters out for as close to 40 minutes a game as possible maximizes our chances at winning, or playing G (who doesn't seem all that ready to me either) down low makes sense, then there you go. But as someone else mentioned, the CJ we saw through the first 20 games, the one that was money down the stretch has given way to a CJ that hasn't been very effective down the stretch over thee. last group of games. His defense has been poor, and he's not hitting shots that he used to hit at a very high clip.

Maybe it's tired legs, maybe it's just bad luck. Who knows.

Not sure of your point about TR's playing time. JB gave him some time, no doubt to give other guys a breather and probably to see if the game time led to improvement. He took a chance but apparently decided not to keep taking that chance.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

H&C - c'mon you can't really be criticizing the 34-3 squad for not playing the 4th guard enough. That's borderline crazy talk. And suppose JB played him more, it's conceivable he could have gone pro. Then last year would have been Triche and Cooney - yikes.

Anyway, my point was that this is not some system problem with JB going really short on his bench. But instead it is based on the players at his disposal. JB would, and has, in the past given the 3rd forward plenty of time (unlike the amount of time a 4th guard would see). Roberson has had the opportunity to have playing time this year but in JB's eyes is clearly not ready.

 

[rstone7727]

Hey Sgt,

Glad you brought up Michael Carter-Williams (by inference, when you mentioned "Just two years ago, JB had played his 4th guard 10 mpg's")

I was a little shocked to see MCW played that many MPG too when I looked...but it's misleading, since he only played in 26 of the 37 games. His total minutes were still only 269, a little less than 4 times as many as Scoop played that year.

But, since we talking about MCW, I have to admit, I still find it odd he was only able to get 269 minutes of playing time that year. Now, it's more due to a slightly different issue - JB "rewarding" program guys like Scoop & Triche with more playing time - but still sort of related, in fact that we will never know how that season may have ended had JB played MCW more minutes. Maybe MCW has a great NCAA Tournament that year, similar to last year?

All I know is, MCW went from:

2010-2011 - High School Senior, rated 4th best SG (ESPN) recruit, McDonalds All American, who also won the McDonald's Skills Competition for Guards.

To:

2011-2012 - Getting only 269 minutes of playing time (playing only 26 of 37 games) while Freshmen at SU - mostly because Scoop, Triche and Dion were playing in front of him - but also partly because of JB's hesitation to play Freshmen (or more talented, but less experienced players) unless he absolutely has to.

To:

2012-2013 - Playing tons of minutes as Soph, setting SU single-season record for most steals in a season, and having 2nd most assists in a season while leading SU to the Final Four.

To:

2013-2014 - Probable front-runner to be selected as NBA Rookie of the Year.

So he went from great in 2010-11, to being only good enough to earn 269 minutes in 2011-12, back to being great again in the two seasons after...

Henny, seems you are learning how JB operates.. Remember what he said to Andy Katz? "I'll answer anyone's question but yours because you're an idiot and really a disloyal person". Loyalty is paramount to JB, see this: He loves loyalty and rewards loyalty when he sees it in players. When they stick by him and have patience, he will reward them. This is what a teacher does..

What is the reason MCW didn't play much his freshman year? It wasn't because he wasn't good enough, it was because Brandon and Scoop were reaping the rewards of loyalty. If you come in as a freshman and want playing time, you had better be twice as good as any Seniors ahead of you or you will have to wait your turn. Has Roberson been loyal to JB? Who knows, I guess only JB can answer that.

 

[Eagles20]

A question I have is... Does anyone think their is a direct correlation between amount of starters minutes played this season and the late season losing streak? Does anyone think that the last 10 minutes of bad offense and sluggish defense against Virginia have to do with players being worn down?

I haven't been overly impressed with Roberson when he has been on the court, but it is really hard to expect much from a player who hasn't played enough to get any confidence while in the game. It is noticeable that he is playing to not make a mistake rather just being in the flow. I also find it hard to believe that since practice one, he hasn't improved to be able to give our forwards a quick breather to keep them fresh for the end of the game. What is possibly lacking with player development that has hindered his progress considering he was a very good high school player? How does he not know the plays after only a few weeks of practice? I'm not in anyway thinking he won't have a huge breakout year next year like many before him, but I'm a little surprised he can't get on the court this season considering he could be the 3rd forward on the depth chart.

 

[Ghost]

Not sure of your point about TR's playing time. JB gave him some time, no doubt to give other guys a breather and probably to see if the game time led to improvement. He took a chance but apparently decided not to keep taking that chance.

I guess the point is he was showing enough to warrant 5 minutes in the first half of our biggest regular season game in years. He played quite well that game - and he played 5 or so minutes in a couple other games. He rebounds better than G, and down low plays comparable defense. I just don't see the downside to having extended our bench - instead we invested a ton of minutes in having G play down low - and do relatively little.

We're all arguing over nonsense at this point anyway. It's all about whether you think we would have been better off with some of the energy guys getting run and how that could have benefited CJ/Cooney long term, maybe the pace of our games...it's too late for it anyway though.

 

[longislandcuse]

Hey Sgt,

Glad you brought up Michael Carter-Williams (by inference, when you mentioned "Just two years ago, JB had played his 4th guard 10 mpg's")

I was a little shocked to see MCW played that many MPG too when I looked...but it's misleading, since he only played in 26 of the 37 games. His total minutes were still only 269, a little less than 4 times as many as Scoop played that year.

But, since we talking about MCW, I have to admit, I still find it odd he was only able to get 269 minutes of playing time that year. Now, it's more due to a slightly different issue - JB "rewarding" program guys like Scoop & Triche with more playing time - but still sort of related, in fact that we will never know how that season may have ended had JB played MCW more minutes. Maybe MCW has a great NCAA Tournament that year, similar to last year?

All I know is, MCW went from:

2010-2011 - High School Senior, rated 4th best SG (ESPN) recruit, McDonalds All American, who also won the McDonald's Skills Competition for Guards.

To:

2011-2012 - Getting only 269 minutes of playing time (playing only 26 of 37 games) while Freshmen at SU - mostly because Scoop, Triche and Dion were playing in front of him - but also partly because of JB's hesitation to play Freshmen (or more talented, but less experienced players) unless he absolutely has to.

To:

2012-2013 - Playing tons of minutes as Soph, setting SU single-season record for most steals in a season, and having 2nd most assists in a season while leading SU to the Final Four.

To:

2013-2014 - Probable front-runner to be selected as NBA Rookie of the Year.

So he went from great in 2010-11, to being only good enough to earn 269 minutes in 2011-12, back to being great again in the two seasons after...

Awesome example! I love this post. There's no way MCW just "wasnt ready".

 

[realorange]

Oy Vey!

So let me get this straight: Freshmen basketball players are arriving on college campuses with more experience & instruction than ever before (thanks to AAU teams, travel teams, All Star games, various camps, private instructors, Prep School years, ect), they have world-class facilities at their disposal to practice in 24-7 (Melo Center) and, in some cases, have been committed to SU for a year or more in advance (so the coaches can tell them what to start working on & practicing & how) ...YET...for some reason, SU runs a zone defense so complex it cannot be properly learned in time for Freshmen players to get 5-10 mintues per game...AND...Roberson doesn't even know what to do on an inbounds play? Really?

It's basketball, not rocket science. Kentucky literally won a National Championship just 2 years ago with a starting lineup that included 4 or so Freshmen.

We are not asking these players to find Malaysia Airlines Flight 370. Yikes!

On one of the recent sports programs, there was a conversation about all the AAU games/players. It was said that was a much of a problem as a positive because there are few AAU coaches that teach fundamentals. Just run and gun.
As for Kentucky, what are there 40-0 freshman doing this year?

 

[DoctorBombay]

A question I have is... Does anyone think their is a direct correlation between amount of starters minutes played this season and the late season losing streak? Does anyone think that the last 10 minutes of bad offense and sluggish defense against Virginia have to do with players being worn down?

Yes.

 

[djcon57]

Henny, seems you are learning how JB operates.. Remember what he said to Andy Katz? "I'll answer anyone's question but yours because you're an idiot and really a disloyal person". Loyalty is paramount to JB, see this: He loves loyalty and rewards loyalty when he sees it in players. When they stick by him and have patience, he will reward them. This is what a teacher does..

Wow. Really? I disagree. A teacher doesn't reward his students for sub par performances.

"This paper is a awful, BUT you've been here for a long time and are nice, so you get an A"

 

[rstone7727]

Wow. Really? I disagree. A teacher doesn't reward his students for sub par performances.

"This paper is a awful, BUT you've been here for a long time and are nice, so you get an A"

Yes, it's a fact of life really. Do as society (coach) wants and you will get the most playing time, get the best job, climb the highest ladder and succeed. America was built by Kissing ass, lets face the facts shall we? I see it continually in every aspect of life.

 

[djcon57]

Yes, it's a fact of life really. Do as society (coach) wants and you will get the most playing time, get the best job, climb the highest ladder and succeed. America was built by Kissing ass, lets face the facts shall we? I see it continually in every aspect of life.

Yikes.

 

[rstone7727]

Yikes.

HaHa, not by me...

 

[NKR1978]

The status quo on this site is stale. I'm looking for some fans who want to take off their orange goggles. Be honest. I grew up with Matt Gorman. I know things you guys dont know about JB. I got it from Gorman. I know how stubborn JB is. It is disgustingly frustrating. The difference is Gorman knew he wasn't good enough to get minutes.

Roberson is PLENTY good enough. His sample size has been so small it just isn't fair to say...well he didnt play well against GT. It was the only time he played more than 5 minutes this year.

That is all they needed. It really is/was that simple.

If you don't like this site you might find more like minded posters at Syracuse.com or at Nunesmagician.

 

[NKR1978]

"If its not broke, dont fix it".

We have one National Championship and go to a Final 4 once a decade. For the talent we bring in, our brand, our facilities and fanbase, that seems like its maybe not broken, but certainly has a few glitches.

If you look at our NBA guys compared to the programs that go to Final Fours all the time, I think our talent is over stated. It isn't outside of living memory that we were signing guys like Brennan-McBride, Greg Davis, James Thues and Josh Wright. Our recruiting has gotten better, but we don't have much to show for it on the next level.

The fact that JB is able to do so well with guys, hide their weaknesses and turn them into draft picks is pretty amazing and I think shows what a great coach he is.

 

[pearl31]

Does anyone think that the last 10 minutes of bad offense and sluggish defense against Virginia have to do with players being worn down?

Maybe a little. But that 2nd half beatdown was much more about no Jerami Grant then just being demoralized than anything else.

 

[dollarbill44]

A question I have is... Does anyone think their is a direct correlation between amount of starters minutes played this season and the late season losing streak? Does anyone think that the last 10 minutes of bad offense and sluggish defense against Virginia have to do with players being worn down?

I haven't been overly impressed with Roberson when he has been on the court, but it is really hard to expect much from a player who hasn't played enough to get any confidence while in the game. It is noticeable that he is playing to not make a mistake rather just being in the flow. I also find it hard to believe that since practice one, he hasn't improved to be able to give our forwards a quick breather to keep them fresh for the end of the game. What is possibly lacking with player development that has hindered his progress considering he was a very good high school player? How does he not know the plays after only a few weeks of practice? I'm not in anyway thinking he won't have a huge breakout year next year like many before him, but I'm a little surprised he can't get on the court this season considering he could be the 3rd forward on the depth chart.

Yes. Guys get worn down from the accumulation of minutes over a season. It is a big reason why Pitino's teams always seem to peak in March, imo. He basically has 2 main guys and a bunch if interchangeable parts because they're fresher and have a lot of game experience.

 

[AZOrange]

If you look at our NBA guys compared to the programs that go to Final Fours all the time, I think our talent is over stated. It isn't outside of living memory that we were signing guys like Brennan-McBride, Greg Davis, James Thues and Josh Wright. Our recruiting has gotten better, but we don't have much to show for it on the next level. The fact that JB is able to do so well with guys, hide their weaknesses and turn them into draft picks is pretty amazing and I think shows what a great coach he is.

Great post. I've almost fully given up on talent level being any sort of success expectation barometer. Some of our most talented teams were our worst and vice versa. People should just judge him by his FFs rather than his FFs based on talent. Talent is too subjective and often irrelevant

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Awesome example! I love this post. There's no way MCW just "wasnt ready".

No, it is not a good example. MCW was the 4th guard. So, yes, in JBs system his 4th guard no matter how good won't get many minutes.

But Roberson should be the 3rd forward, totally different. The 3rd forward can get significant run. JB does not use a 6 man rotation very often, and yet he did it instead of sending Roberson out there one time. This is not a JB always does this thing, it is he feels Roberson is not ready thing.

And for those who are claiming Roberson is ready, they are doing it based off a lot less information than what JB has in front of him.