Look How Many Bench Players NC State has on the court

[SBU72]

While your at it, why can't SU have 4 shooters who hit like ~40% from the 3 point arc? Damn, play 9 guys and have all those shooter! And don't forget the need to play man-2-man defense.

 

[CousCuse]

Everything that Beohiem constucts the team on is based on the 2-3 zone. If young players don't fully understand all the complexities and permutations of the defensive plan and are not in the right place moving with the other players on instinct, then the whole zone falls apart. It is only as strong as its weakest link. Coach is not concerned with freshman scoring, period. It takes a lot of time and effort for most high school ballers to become a competent and effective player in JAB's zone.

 

[DoctorBombay]

I've stated my personal opinion on JB's "short bench" issues on numerous threads.
This IS like beating a dead horse in that at this point in the season, there's nothing left to do except to give JB the benefit of the doubt (something he's undoubtedly earned after-all), have faith in his wisdom and hope we come out blazing tomorrow.
However, the tone and tenor of the OP seems to be more about getting a reaction, than stressing a point. Its hard to focus on the entirely valid short bench argument, one that I also happen to agree w/, if the posts are full of tangents and side-issues. JMHO

 

[orange79]

Wasted Talent. JB is guilty of it this year. Take off your orange goggles

Come on back when you have 30+ years of coaching, become a member of the HOF, and win a NC and then maybe I will listen to you. Until then, you would do well to couch your criticism in the form of questions or suggestions, and not certainty. Because everything you have said here, other than the bench is not playing a lot, is all just speculation and conjecture purported to be 'fact'.

 

[pearl31]

It seems like some people are imagining that Roberson played well when he was given his opportunity vs. GaTech - or even in the earlier games when he was given opportunities. As OrangeExtreme posted, TR had been given ample opportunity and has simply shown that he is not ready yet. And none of us have seen him in practice, either.

 

[Henny & Coke]

It seems like some people are imagining that Roberson played well when he was given his opportunity vs. GaTech - or even in the earlier games when he was given opportunities. As OrangeExtreme posted, TR had been given ample opportunity and has simply shown that he is not ready yet. And none of us have seen him in practice, either.

I don't expect a Frosh to come in and play well (especially a non-guard), but if you do not provide playing time, you also do not provide much of an opportunity for the player to show improvement in game situation, either. I know I would gladly accept some poor play by a Frosh early, if the experience gained is likely to help the team more in the end. (And there are multiple examples of highly rated Frosh gradually getting better over course of a season with regular playing time.)

And on the "JB sees these guys in practice everyday" point - does the inverse also work? Because we hear that in practice, Trevor Cooney (figuratively) doesn't miss a single shot. Yet, in games, he's missed plenty (recently).

Is there such a thing as players playing differently from practice to game situation, and vice versa? (In form of a question, but mainly just rhetorical, as I believe that yes, such a scenario can exist.)

 

[pearl31]

Is there such a thing as players playing differently from practice to game situation, and vice versa? (In form of a question, but mainly just rhetorical, as I believe that yes, such a scenario can exist.)

Good question, and I'm not sure. I think there are definitely players that practice really well and it doesn't translate into games - and TC might very well be an example of that. I'm just saying that with Roberson it's probably a combination of not practicing all that well (a guess on my part) and then showing he's not ready to go in games, especially his big chance in the GT game.

 

[BludOrange]

TR does not even know where to be or what to do on an inbound play, yet he should get some of CJ's or JG's minutes?

 

[kuethstheman]

Is there such a thing as players playing differently from practice to game situation, and vice versa? (In form of a question, but mainly just rhetorical, as I believe that yes, such a scenario can exist.)

Apparently not for TR.

 

[AZOrange]

TR does not even know where to be or what to do on an inbound play, yet he should get some of CJ's or JG's minutes?

yeah i noticed that too. Our inbounds are rough recently

 

[Henny & Coke]

TR does not even know where to be or what to do on an inbound play, yet he should get some of CJ's or JG's minutes?

Oy Vey!

So let me get this straight: Freshmen basketball players are arriving on college campuses with more experience & instruction than ever before (thanks to AAU teams, travel teams, All Star games, various camps, private instructors, Prep School years, ect), they have world-class facilities at their disposal to practice in 24-7 (Melo Center) and, in some cases, have been committed to SU for a year or more in advance (so the coaches can tell them what to start working on & practicing & how) ...YET...for some reason, SU runs a zone defense so complex it cannot be properly learned in time for Freshmen players to get 5-10 mintues per game...AND...Roberson doesn't even know what to do on an inbounds play? Really?

It's basketball, not rocket science. Kentucky literally won a National Championship just 2 years ago with a starting lineup that included 4 or so Freshmen.

We are not asking these players to find Malaysia Airlines Flight 370. Yikes!

 

[BludOrange]

Kentucky leaned on vetrans when they won their last NC. Their freshman also flamed out and lost their 1st round NIT game.

 

[orangecuse]

TR does not even know where to be or what to do on an inbound play, yet he should get some of CJ's or JG's minutes?

No, but let's be honest. JB's strength has never been developing his bench. This goes back years and fans have complained endlessly. It'll never change while he remains the coach. Why doesn't Tony Scott, Glenn Sekunda, Lashaun Jackson, Keith Hughes, etc., etc. etc.

I'm a huge Boeheim fan, and what he has done to put this program where it is, and keep it there, is completely astounding...a lot of fans will likely never truly appreciate it. I don't care how successful one is, we all have weaknesses along with our strengths. JB just strongly (can't emphasize that enough) prefers to play his starters complete games for the mostpart...with a token 2 man substitution...always has...it's purely his comfort zone. If it aint broke, don't fix it...so there's no way he's a changing...certainly not with all of his success, accompanied by his age & stubbornness. However, it's also likely a direct correlation (at least a strong argument based upon an enormous sample size) as to why his team's traditionally have a very short bench...

 

[NineOneSeven]

Bus is simply not a very good shooter, he is 9 for 25 (.360) from the floor and 4 of 16 from 3 (.250)... Trevor has much better numbers. Sorry but Bus simply is not the player Trevor is at this point. I don't understand why people want to play unproven bench players when the starters have demonstrated they are better. You can look at the stats here:
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/183/syracuse-orange

Buss has played only 9 games? Since you like 9 game samples sizes so much:

Cooney's last 9:
23-87 Fg (26.4%), 15-65 3Fg (23.1%), with a TOTAL of 4 assists. I'll say that again. A TOTAL of 4 assists.

I'm not sitting here saying Buss should play over Cooney. I'm just saying your reasoning is garbage. By the way, thanks for the link, made it easy for me.

 

[SoBeCuse]

And the premise of wasted talent is obviously different in context than the movie; However JB is wasting scholarship talent on that bench. They could have helped. He is stubborn.

DM Southerland and ask him about it. I did. He was a victim of the JB wasted talent bugaboo.

Right, it's Boeheim's fault that it took Southerland 5 years to barely be able to dribble.

 

[BludOrange]

Oy Vey!

So let me get this straight: Freshmen basketball players are arriving on college campuses with more experience & instruction than ever before (thanks to AAU teams, travel teams, All Star games, various camps, private instructors, Prep School years, ect), they have world-class facilities at their disposal to practice in 24-7 (Melo Center) and, in some cases, have been committed to SU for a year or more in advance (so the coaches can tell them what to start working on & practicing & how) ...YET...for some reason, SU runs a zone defense so complex it cannot be properly learned in time for Freshmen players to get 5-10 mintues per game...AND...Roberson doesn't even know what to do on an inbounds play? Really?

It's basketball, not rocket science. Kentucky literally won a National Championship just 2 years ago with a starting lineup that included 4 or so Freshmen.

We are not asking these players to find Malaysia Airlines Flight 370. Yikes!

AAU is far from college basketball. AAU is a toned down version of the McDonalds game.

Yes, Roberson does not know where to be on an inbounds play. If he cannot do his part on an inbounds play, what makes you think he will be in the right position on an offensive play?

SU's zone is alot more complex than your average man to man defense. Roberson missed Canada and the practices that went with it. Where the other freshman were taught the basics of the zone during that time.

Yes, TR should have been given token minutes all season to help him progress, "should have" being the key words.

 

[JoeSU]

If I might add a relevant point that I don't think has been mentioned yet... having a deep bench is not so important during the NCAA tournament, when there are extended media TOs, and half-time is lengthened from 15 to > 20 mins, plus the first coach TO in each half automatically becomes a 2:30 media TO (which are really more like 3:00 from whistle to whistle). There is plenty of time for young athletes to recover during stoppages.
I would also argue this is why coaching is a greater factor in the tournament - with all of the extended stoppages, the HC has more opportunities to make in-game adjustments.

 

[llandz]

I agree with a lot of the wish we played more bench sentiment. Henny makes some very good points, in a constructive way. And I somewhat buy into the arguments that just because it has always been is no reason not to change. Change and flexibility in life is always important, and good. But yes, the zone is a little more complicated. And at this point I put my trust in the fact that coach does not think they can handle it as well in the big game situations. And I vote YES I wish we played the freshman more, but the larger point is that it is not going to happen, at least not this year, so after this post I am done with the discussion. So I am going to root for this team as we go forward, and I am going to choose to believe that we get our 25-0 swagger back and make a nice run. If I choose Orange glasses it is because I happen to own a pair from Manny's.

 

[DoctorBombay]

I agree with a lot of the wish we played more bench sentiment. Henny makes some very good points, in a constructive way. And I somewhat buy into the arguments that just because it has always been is no reason not to change. Change and flexibility in life is always important, and good. But yes, the zone is a little more complicated. And at this point I put my trust in the fact that coach does not think they can handle it as well in the big game situations. And I vote YES I wish we played the freshman more, but the larger point is that it is not going to happen, at least not this year, so after this post I am done with the discussion. So I am going to root for this team as we go forward, and I am going to choose to believe that we get our 25-0 swagger back and make a nice run. If I choose Orange glasses it is because I happen to own a pair from Manny's.

Amen.

 

[TinyManInside]

Mason, with all due respect I don't think it's fair to say after feb 1 we were an nit team...I mean we played well at duke, clemson, fl state etc and also had some close games at the beginning...what I am saying is that no one in their right mind could say this has been a wasted year or poor job by jb based on the result. Did it finish how we wanted? No. But the start also exceeded expectations and the end record was great.

last 11 games since beating Duke, we are 6-5 with good wins at Pitt and home against Clemson, plus BAD loses against Ga Tech and Boston College. If a tournament selection committee were judging ONLY on games after Feb 1st, that is not an impressive resume in any way shape or form, and would likely result in a burst bubble.

I'm not saying it was a wasted season (hell, the most important part of the season starts tomorrow and we have no idea how that will go), but I am saying that 27-5 looks great on paper but not as good when you parse it as 25-0 / 2-5.

 

[Henny & Coke]

TR does not even know where to be or what to do on an inbound play, yet he should get some of CJ's or JG's minutes?

I guess I have trouble reconciling this observation (of Roberson not being able to comprehend his role on an inbounds play) with Bees observation/prediction at beginning of season that Roberson was the most talented player on the team...

Can anybody help me figure that out? What happened?

 

[kuethstheman]

I guess I have trouble reconciling this observation (of Roberson not being able to comprehend his role on an inbounds play) with Bees observation/prediction at beginning of season that Roberson was the most talented player on the team...

Can anybody help me figure that out? What happened?

Would be interested to know if you could answer your own question if you tried really hard. Hint: Some points made earlier in this thread could help.

 

[AZOrange]

I guess I have trouble reconciling this observation (of Roberson not being able to comprehend his role on an inbounds play) with Bees observation/prediction at beginning of season that Roberson was the most talented player on the team... Can anybody help me figure that out? What happened?

Talent is far different than being ready to play. Tyler Ennis was ready. I mean we start 2 Sophs and a freshman. Jb plays guys that are ready.

 

[longislandcuse]

No, but let's be honest. JB's strength has never been developing his bench. This goes back years and fans have complained endlessly. It'll never change while he remains the coach. Why doesn't Tony Scott, Glenn Sekunda, Lashaun Jackson, Keith Hughes, etc., etc. etc.

I'm a huge Boeheim fan, and what he has done to put this program where it is, and keep it there, is completely astounding...a lot of fans will likely never truly appreciate it. I don't care how successful one is, we all have weaknesses along with our strengths. JB just strongly (can't emphasize that enough) prefers to play his starters complete games for the mostpart...with a token 2 man substitution...always has...it's purely his comfort zone. If it aint broke, don't fix it...so there's no way he's a changing...certainly not with all of his success, accompanied by his age & stubbornness. However, it's also likely a direct correlation (at least a strong argument based upon an enormous sample size) as to why his team's traditionally have a very short bench...

"If its not broke, dont fix it".

We have one National Championship and go to a Final 4 once a decade. For the talent we bring in, our brand, our facilities and fanbase, that seems like its maybe not broken, but certainly has a few glitches.

 

[AZOrange]

last 11 games since beating Duke, we are 6-5 with good wins at Pitt and home against Clemson, plus BAD loses against Ga Tech and Boston College. If a tournament selection committee were judging ONLY on games after Feb 1st, that is not an impressive resume in any way shape or form, and would likely result in a burst bubble. I'm not saying it was a wasted season (hell, the most important part of the season starts tomorrow and we have no idea how that will go), but I am saying that 27-5 looks great on paper but not as good when you parse it as 25-0 / 2-5.

i don't think anyone disagrees we played bad twice down the stretch. Albeit a little short handed. I think we played bad a couple times earlier in the year too (we just won).
I didn't mean to imply you said it was a wasted season. It's been a general tone on the board lately.