Melodramatic absolutely owning Lebron

[KingOtis]

Wrong.

Clutch Stats

But those are just stats. They don't mean anything.

Do you understand what begging the question is? What you're doing is no different than someone arguing that life begins at conception and then treating it as fact.

 

[44cuse]

Do you understand what begging the question is? What you're doing is no different than someone arguing that life begins at conception and then treating it as fact.

No, I am providing you with facts that you are choosing not to respond to. Those are facts. They are stats. Binary.

44cuse

 

[Ward]

This is my last reply. Otis I'm not sure what your argument is or if you even have one besides try to play devils advocate with everyone's post. You ask for facts, then when facts are given you basically don't acknowledge them, bring up something else, or try and find a miniscule flaw, and then argue against them with opinion. Your video post about Kobe having 5 rings, I'm talking about this year, right now, LeBron is the best. Does Kobe have a more impressive resume? Rings wise, yes. But right now LeBron is better, plain and simple. You say the positives are there for LeBron but there's some negatives too, you could make that argument about every player to ever play any sport in history. Kobe's career is on the downside, LeBron is just entering his prime according to the popular belief that your prime is between 27-32.

And what are you talking about if youre going to cite something cite it? I offered a suggestion for you to educate yourself and stop sounding like a clown. You're embarrassing yourself on this thread.

 

[CorduroyG]

lol at people knocking kobe for his finals failures. hes got 5 rings!!!!! is he supposed to have 10 rings by now? lol when lebron gets a couple rings people arent gonna be bringing up his failures earlier in his career. but lets start with 1 ring shall we? until that happens, its fair game.

kobe won 3 rings with shaq, where he was much more than a "sidekick". then the lakers completely rebuilt the team around kobe, then a couple years later they got to 3 straight finals including back to back titles. how many superstars have won a title, then went through a rebuilding process, and then won a couple more with a completely different team? magic never won without kareem. jordan never won without pippen. bird never won without parrish and mchale (i dont think, maybe his first one was without 1 of them). and for those who say kobe only got his last 2 cuz they got gasol, how many playoff wins did gasol have before playing with kobe? ill give you a hint, its less than 1.

 

[KingOtis]

No, I am providing you with facts that you are choosing not to respond to. Those are facts. They are stats. Binary.

They're convoluted. Pro lifers believe their argument is supported by science, that doesn't mean they're right. Your stats are not universally recognized, therefore I don't have to dignify them. The site you're using for your clutch stats redefines the meaning of clutch with every study. That's a red flag right there.

 

[Knicks411]

Kobe is awesome, I don't think anyone is disputing that. I was just bringing him up to say that it's rarely black and white as to who is "clutch" or not. But hey, Kobe never won a title without Derek Fisher. (And yes, that's a joke)

McHale and Parish were both on the 81 Celtics, fwiw.

 

[KingOtis]

And what are you talking about if youre going to cite something cite it? I offered a suggestion for you to educate yourself and stop sounding like a clown. You're embarrassing yourself on this thread.

And if you had the upper hand, you wouldn't resort to personal attacks.

 

[CorduroyG]

Kobe is awesome, I don't think anyone is disputing that. I was just bringing him up to say that it's rarely black and white as to who is "clutch" or not. But hey, Kobe never won a title without Derek Fisher. (And yes, that's a joke)

McHale and Parish were both on the 81 Celtics, fwiw.

well yea. im sure i could rattle off a bunch of jordan and magic playoff games where they had bad games. but when you got 6 rings like mj, or 5 like kobe and magic, those bad games or series or whatever get thrown out the window. with lebron its still relevant until he wins a couple.

 

[CorduroyG]

5/6/2006 Lakers vs Suns, Game 7

That is quitting to send a message. In a Game 7. But no one ever talks about that.

44cuse

yea cuz hes got 5 rings. when lebron has 5 rings, nobody will talk about how he quit in game 5 against boston. or his disappearing acts in the 4th qtr of the 2011 finals.

 

[Knicks411]

well yea. im sure i could rattle off a bunch of jordan and magic playoff games where they had bad games. but when you got 6 rings like mj, or 5 like kobe and magic, those bad games or series or whatever get thrown out the window. with lebron its still relevant until he wins a couple.

I think that's fair, and he's losing the teammate argument since he's had Wade for the last 2 years.

Sometimes when I read the Lebron is a choker stuff, it seems like it is attacking him personally, and it's not just that he hasn't come through, but it's that he lacks some mental ability to ever come through. Which is why i, and others, A) point out the times he has come through, and B) point out the time other guys who have the clutch label have failed to do so.

I am also getting skeptical of whether or not they'll win it this year; they have kinda struggled lately. But Rose is real banged up too, so I guess they are still the favorite to come out of the east.

 

[CorduroyG]

lebron is the best player in the nba. hes also not a choker. BUT, hes not the cold hearted killer like kobe or mj or even magic and bird. hes not obsessed with winning like those guys were. people say lebron is more like magic than jordan or kobe, meaning he likes to get other guys involved more than looking for his own. thats fine, and probably true. but hes not as competetive as magic. magic was all about winning. listen to his old laker teammates talk about him, magic was a killer. winning was all that mattered to him. thats all that mattered to any of them. winning. being the best. obsessing over it. lebron just doesnt have that in him, and im not sure he'll ever get it. that doesnt mean he'll never win a title, but lacking that "rip your heart out" mentality that those other guys had is gonna prevent him from reaching those heights those guys did. kobe and magic and mj would have wanted to beat dwayne wade, not join him.

 

[Knicks411]

Think there is a ton of truth to that; in fact I think I agreed with everything until maybe the last line. Magic had no problem playing with Kareem, who was probably the best player in the league when Magic came into the league. Though wouldn't Lebron teaming up with Bosh and Wade show that he only wanted to win? He didn't care about who got the credit for it, didn't care about being "the guy", he just wanted to be on a team that won.

Kobe deserves credit here; rightly or wrongly from a hoops standpoint he wanted Shaq off the team; partly because of personal reasons but he also wanted the team to his own.

 

[CorduroyG]

Think there is a ton of truth to that; in fact I think I agreed with everything until maybe the last line. Magic had no problem playing with Kareem, who was probably the best player in the league when Magic came into the league. Though wouldn't Lebron teaming up with Bosh and Wade show that he only wanted to win? He didn't care about who got the credit for it, didn't care about being "the guy", he just wanted to be on a team that won.

Kobe deserves credit here; rightly or wrongly from a hoops standpoint he wanted Shaq off the team; partly because of personal reasons but he also wanted the team to his own.

great point, which nobody ever brings up. they just blame kobe for breaking up that team. but shaq was a problem. after the 3peat he got lazy and fat. he would take regular season games off. shaq was content with the 3peat, i think kobe was obsessed with catching jordan's 6 rings even back then. and definitely kobe wanting to be "the man" was a big part of it too. and it turned out to be the right move for the lakers to trade shaq and build around kobe.

 

[44cuse]

They're convoluted. Pro lifers believe their argument is supported by science, that doesn't mean they're right. Your stats are not universally recognized, therefore I don't have to dignify them. The site you're using for your clutch stats redefines the meaning of clutch with every study. That's a red flag right there.

To quote o'sully:

"Otis I'm not sure what your argument is or if you even have one besides try to play devils advocate with everyone's post. You ask for facts, then when facts are given you basically don't acknowledge them, bring up something else, or try and find a miniscule flaw, and then argue against them with opinion."

You have not addressed any fact or stat. You just dismiss.

Here the definition of clutch on the site: "82games defines clutch as the last 5 minutes of a 5-point game or closer, and all stats below are per 36 minutes and through January 6, 2011."

They have one definition. They have not redefined anything.

You have been given multiple statistical sources and you refuse to refute anything with facts.

44cuse

 

[longislandcuse]

great point, which nobody ever brings up. they just blame kobe for breaking up that team. but shaq was a problem. after the 3peat he got lazy and fat. he would take regular season games off. shaq was content with the 3peat, i think kobe was obsessed with catching jordan's 6 rings even back then. and definitely kobe wanting to be "the man" was a big part of it too. and it turned out to be the right move for the lakers to trade shaq and build around kobe.

You hear stories about Kobe's competitive drive and its borderline psychotic, he is obsessed with winning and I love it. People hate on Kobe but he is the ultimate competitor. Stephen A Smith this morning was talking about Kobe and says he saw him in the hallway after a game the other day (Kobe has missed a few games) and says whats up to Kobe, Kobe responds "these young dudes got nothin on me" and keeps walking lol.

 

[44cuse]

well yea. im sure i could rattle off a bunch of jordan and magic playoff games where they had bad games. but when you got 6 rings like mj, or 5 like kobe and magic, those bad games or series or whatever get thrown out the window. with lebron its still relevant until he wins a couple.

Agreed. No problem with that. But in no way does that make Kobe a better player then LeBron (which is the point). Not saying you are saying that (in fact I think you said somewhere else LeBron was better). Just saying that others are saying Kobe is better and that's just not the case.

44cuse

 

[Knicks411]

great point, which nobody ever brings up. they just blame kobe for breaking up that team. but shaq was a problem. after the 3peat he got lazy and fat.

Ha, I would only disagree to say I don't think he waited until AFTER the 3 peat to start with that.

and definitely kobe wanting to be "the man" was a big part of it too. and it turned out to be the right move for the lakers to trade shaq and build around kobe.

​

​

Yes, in retrospect it seems obvious to build around the 28 oe 29 year old guy as opposed to the fat over 30 guy, but at the time, it was pretty split.​

​

I think most importantly, Kobe wants to win and he wants to win on his terms.

 

[longislandcuse]

Agreed. No problem with that. But in no way does that make Kobe a better player then LeBron (which is the point). Not saying you are saying that (in fact I think you said somewhere else LeBron was better). Just saying that others are saying Kobe is better and that's just not the case.

44cuse

LBJ in his prime or Kobe in his prime. You get to choose one to start a team. Who do you take?

 

[CorduroyG]

Agreed. No problem with that. But in no way does that make Kobe a better player then LeBron (which is the point). Not saying you are saying that (in fact I think you said somewhere else LeBron was better). Just saying that others are saying Kobe is better and that's just not the case.

44cuse

lebron is the best player, but honestly for the playoffs this year id take kobe, assuming theyre both healthy. hopefully we finally get that lebron-kobe finals.

 

[longislandcuse]

lebron is the best player, but honestly for the playoffs this year id take kobe, assuming theyre both healthy. hopefully we finally get that lebron-kobe finals.

Id rather a Kobe/Melo finals, but yea that would be fun

 

[Knicks411]

LBJ in his prime or Kobe in his prime. You get to choose one to start a team. Who do you take?

Still Lebron for me. He's just so versatile, I can build any kind of team around him. I also think he's better. But Kobe's durability is damn impressive.

 

[44cuse]

lebron is the best player, but honestly for the playoffs this year id take kobe, assuming theyre both healthy. hopefully we finally get that lebron-kobe finals.

That's a different question altogether. The better question there is would you rather see LeBron/Kobe or LeBron/Durant?

mb

 

[KingOtis]

To quote o'sully:

"Otis I'm not sure what your argument is or if you even have one besides try to play devils advocate with everyone's post. You ask for facts, then when facts are given you basically don't acknowledge them, bring up something else, or try and find a miniscule flaw, and then argue against them with opinion."

You have not addressed any fact or stat. You just dismiss.

Here the definition of clutch on the site: "82games defines clutch as the last 5 minutes of a 5-point game or closer, and all stats below are per 36 minutes and through January 6, 2011."

They have one definition. They have not redefined anything.

You have been given multiple statistical sources and you refuse to refute anything with facts.

44cuse

You're being disingenuous if you claim that they haven't redefined anything, but don't worry about it. It doesn't matter.

You could bring up multiple sources that support intelligent design and I wouldn't bother looking at any of them. I'm not interested. Just as I'm not interested in convoluted numbers that aren't universally recognized, much less utilized.

The problem here is your failure to grasp that this debate is entirely subjective. You're not going to prove that you're right or that I'm wrong. It's a matter of opinion.

 

[44cuse]

You're being disingenuous if you claim that they haven't redefined anything, but don't worry about it. It doesn't matter.

You could bring up multiple sources that support intelligent design and I wouldn't bother looking at any of them. I'm not interested. Just as I'm not interested in convoluted numbers that aren't universally recognized, much less utilized.

The problem here is your failure to grasp that this debate is entirely subjective. You're not going to prove that you're right or that I'm wrong. It's a matter of opinion.

No. Stats are stats. In crunch time LeBron is better at: PTS, REB, AST, TS%, and eFG%.

This isn't one season. It's multiple seasons. Your last argument was that the criteria was different in the clutch stats. You were proved wrong there again. But did you address that? No. Just like every other time in this thread you just move on to the next thing.

You should just drop it. You have not provided a fact or any piece of supporting evidence. Looks silly.

44cuse

 

[KingOtis]

No. Stats are stats. In crunch time LeBron is better at: PTS, REB, AST, TS%, and eFG%.

This isn't one season. It's multiple seasons. Your last argument was that the criteria was different in the clutch stats. You were proved wrong there again. But did you address that? No. Just like every other time in this thread you just move on to the next thing.

You should just drop it. You have not provided a fact or any piece of supporting evidence. Looks silly.

44cuse

What's silly is that you continue to beg the question and you continue to misrepresent my point of view. What's sillier is that you think you can sway me by doing so.