Melodramatic absolutely owning Lebron

[44cuse]

Funny stuff.

What's funny about that?

44cuse

 

[longislandcuse]

I just want to be clear: Are you saying Kobe, Wade and Melo are all better than LeBron? Just so I understand you accurately.

Whether you are clutch or not has nothing to do with being the best player. This was all discussed a couple of days ago. I would much rather have the best player in the league for the 47 minutes of the game where you avoid needing to be clutch.

44cuse

No, im not saying that. Im saying Lebron allows this to be a discussion when he isnt able to hit clutch shots.

 

[44cuse]

Yeah, like I said before, people are praising Melo to the sky for playing awesome the last month or so (and rightfully so, he has) but that incredible stretch is basically what Lebron's normal level of play is. So if you want to throw out all of Melo's career bu t the last 15 games, he's still probably not as good, since he still isn't the defensive player Lebron is.

For whatever it's worth on the Cavs, I seem to remember them getting a little buzz like "maybe they won't be that bad" but I don't think people thought they'd be any good.

Apparently defense doesn't matter.

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[Knicks411]

If your argument is that Lebron has never hit a game winning or tying shot or never again will, then I dunno what to say. You obviously can't prove either way if he would've hit some hypothetical shots. But Melo does have probably a better track record than anyone with those kinds of shots.

But Melo is nowhere near Lebron, not anywhere close enough to make it a discussion, unless you really think he has suddenly hit a new level of performance. I'm going to be hoping for it, but it seems extremely difficult for me to believe.

 

[KingOtis]

How many games did the Cavs win LeBron's last year in Cleveland? How may games did Cavs when the season after he left?

We both agree it was a "supporting" cast. The team was built around him. I said and will continue to maintain that there was enough talent in place for them to achieve more than they did. They were the #1 seed in the East those last two years, so they should have done more in the postseason. Simple as that.

Hollinger's #'s aren't universally recognized...that's really your response? Do you not believe:

Dwight Howard
Dwayne Wade
Dirk Nowitzki
LeBron James
Kevin Love
Chris Paul
Kobe Bryant
Kevin Durant
Russell Westbook
Derrick Rose

Were the 10 best players in the NBA last year? Not to mention...PER/Hollinger should HELP your argument because it is biased towards volume shooters (AKA: Melo).

So I'd say PER does a pretty good job of identifying the best players in the league. I don't know anyone who doesn't think it works. WS and WP48 are debated a little more.

There's nothing more to say. His numbers aren't universally recognized. He's trying to become the Bill James of basketball. ESPN snatched him up before anyone else could and before his stats were properly vetted. And just because Hollinger exists, doesn't mean GMs care. Other than Jerry West, has anyone tried to pull off the NBA's version of Moneyball? Successfully?

You don't need PER to recognize who the best players in the league are.

 

[EastCoast2]

I think Kobe has the most game winning shots, can anyone find a stat?

 

[KingOtis]

What's funny about that?

44cuse

The fact that's it's 100% BS.

 

[44cuse]

No, im not saying that. Im saying Lebron allows this to be a discussion when he isnt able to hit clutch shots.

Thanks for clarifying. We'll have to agree to disagree then. IMO, being clutch has no bearing on who the best player is. That said, if you want to look at the #'s, they say LeBron is the must clutch player from 2003-2011 seasons:

Clutch Stats


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[44cuse]

We both agree it was a "supporting" cast. The team was built around him. I said and will continue to maintain that there was enough talent in place for them to achieve more than they did. They were the #1 seed in the East those last two years, so they should have done more in the postseason. Simple as that.

You still have not answered the question: How many games did the Cavs win after LeBron?

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[44cuse]

The fact that's it's 100% BS.

LOL...ok. You haven't been here very long then.

1. The Cavs/Pistons was fixed
2. Stats don't matter
3. You'd take Chris Paul over LeBron

That's all I need to know. Oh yeah, and I think (can't tell anymore) you believe Melo is better than LeBron.

44cuse

 

[KingOtis]

You still have not answered the question: How many games did the Cavs win after LeBron?

I did answer the question. It's a moot point...and I think you know that.

 

[KingOtis]

LOL...ok. You haven't been here very long then.

1. The Cavs/Pistons was fixed
2. Stats don't matter
3. You'd take Chris Paul over LeBron

That's all I need to know. Oh yeah, and I think (can't tell anymore) you believe Melo is better than LeBron.

1. Tim Donaghy
2. Hollinger's stats don't matter. You continue to beg the question.
3. That's right.

I made it very clear that James is better than Anthony. But I do believe that Anthony deserved ROY. If you're the staunch Anthony defender that you proclaim yourself to be, you'll agree.

 

[44cuse]

I did answer the question. It's a moot point...and I think you know that.

No you didn't. I'll answer it for you:

With LeBron: 61
Without LeBron: 19

EDIT: And just so I can understand your logic...how is wins for a team with a player and the wins for that team after that player leaves a moot point?

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[44cuse]

1. Tim Donaghy
2. Hollinger's stats don't matter. You continue to beg the question.
3. That's right.

I made it very clear that James is better than Anthony. But I do believe that Anthony deserved ROY. If you're the staunch Anthony defender that you proclaim yourself to be, you'll agree.

No doubt Carmelo should have been ROY. Where was that ever even a part of the discussion? We are talking about best player in the league. Not ROY in 2003.

Stats don't matter...NBA is fixed...changing the discussion. You think Chris Paul is better than LeBron.

You certainly have an interesting view of the NBA.

44cuse

 

[KingOtis]

No you didn't. I'll answer it for you:

With LeBron: 61
Without LeBron: 19

EDIT: And just so I can understand your logic...how is wins for a team with a player and the wins for that team after that player leaves a moot point?

Because it has nothing to do with my premise.

 

[44cuse]

Because it has nothing to do with my premise.

What ever you say.

44cuse

 

[KingOtis]

No doubt Carmelo should have been ROY. Where was that ever even a part of the discussion? We are talking about best player in the league. Not ROY in 2003.

Stats don't matter...NBA is fixed...changing the discussion. You think Chris Paul is better than LeBron.

You certainly have an interesting view of the NBA.

If you really had the upper hand here, you wouldn't feel the need to misrepresent my positions.

You accused me of believing that Anthony is better than James. Since you needed it spelled out for you, I clarified.

 

[44cuse]

He's not the best player in the NBA. Look at what Melo did against the Bulls last Sunday. Has James ever done that? I'm not saying Melo is the best in the league, but he's clutch and James is not. Melo's never missed the playoffs either, while James already has twice. And what James did in going to Miami is not something that the best player in the NBA does.

Kevin Durant is probably the best player in the league. Kobe Bryant is still better than James. And if you were re-building a team, it would make more sense to start with Chris Paul or Dwight Howard.

Dude...you cannot be more wrong. And you aren't even quoting or citing anything that makes sense. Here are clutch stats for the NBA since 2003:

Clutch Stats

There you go. Go see for yourself who is most clutch. The numbers are right there for you.

The fact that you think Kobe Bryant is better than LeBron really says it all.

WP48 since 2003:
Kobe in Top 5 once
LeBron in Top 5 six times and 1st 4

WS since 2003:
Kobe in Top 5 three times
LeBron in Top 5 eight times including 4 in 1st and three in 2nd. 1st or 2nd last 7 seasons.

PER
Kobe in Top 5 four times
LeBron in Top 5 seven times including the last 5 seasons in first (which Kobe has never done)

But those are just stats. Granted, from three different sources. You would think at some point they might say something. But if you still believe Kobe is better than LeBron, so be it.

44cuse

 

[Ward]

1. Tim Donaghy
2. Hollinger's stats don't matter. You continue to beg the question.
3. That's right.

I made it very clear that James is better than Anthony. But I do believe that Anthony deserved ROY. If you're the staunch Anthony defender that you proclaim yourself to be, you'll agree.

I honestly do not know the answer to this, but did Donaghy referee each of LeBron's play off games against Detroit where you claim the NBA playoffs are fixed. Because if Donaghy didn't referee those games it nullifies your only piece of evidence.

To claim Hollingers stats and stats similar to win shares aren't really relevant I'm not sure is accurate. Do yourself a favor and google MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference.

I agree with you 100 percent Carmelo should've won ROY. I remember not understanding it because Carmelo had arguably better numbers and his team made the playoffs. Having said that, as much a I love Carmelo and hope he can bring Knicks back to glory, he along with anyone in the rest of the league just isn't better than LeBron. LeBron is the best player in the world right now. Any unbiased look at the numbers and the fact he EFFECTIVELY guards positions 1-5 shows he is on his own level. It is truly remarkable that he can lock up Pau Gasol, Carmelo, Derrick Rose, and Chris Paul and do it all without making it even appear it could be a mismatch for the offensive player.

 

[44cuse]

If you really had the upper hand here, you wouldn't feel the need to misrepresent my positions.

You accused me of believing that Anthony is better than James. Since you needed it spelled out for you, I clarified.

I didn't accuse you of anything...that's why I said "I think". If you don't...thanks for clarifying it. I thought you said that the other day, but if you didn't, I stand corrected. No problem with that.

I absolutely have the upper hand here because I have you given you multiple stats and you are arguing that Chris Paul and Dwight Howard are better then LeBron. Not to mention, I have not seen anyone on this thread yet that has agreed with you on just about anything.

Hence why you resorted to changing the subject about ROY.

Now back to your argument about WHY Kobe is better. Give me some supporting analysis that demonstrates why Kobe is statistically a better player.

44cuse

 

[KingOtis]

Dude...you cannot be more wrong. And you aren't even quoting or citing anything that makes sense. Here are clutch stats for the NBA since 2003:

Clutch Stats

There you go. Go see for yourself who is most clutch. The numbers are right there for you.

The fact that you think Kobe Bryant is better than LeBron really says it all.

WP48 since 2003:
Kobe in Top 5 once
LeBron in Top 5 six times and 1st 4

WS since 2003:
Kobe in Top 5 three times
LeBron in Top 5 eight times including 4 in 1st and three in 2nd. 1st or 2nd last 7 seasons.

PER
Kobe in Top 5 four times
LeBron in Top 5 seven times including the last 5 seasons in first (which Kobe has never done)

But those are just stats. Granted, from three different sources. You would think at some point they might say something. But if you still believe Kobe is better than LeBron, so be it.

Begging the question...

Who has more game-winning shots? Who gets criticized for his play at the end of big games?

 

[KingOtis]

I absolutely have the upper hand here because I have you given you multiple stats

Begging the question.

and you are arguing that Chris Paul and Dwight Howard are better then LeBron.

Never said that.

Not to mention, I have not seen anyone on this thread yet that has agreed with you on just about anything.

Not true and not important either way.

Hence why you resorted to changing the subject about ROY.

Misrepresentation.

Now back to your argument about WHY Kobe is better. Give me some supporting analysis that demonstrates why Kobe is statistically a better player.

Replace "Jordan" with "Bryant" and "six" with "five":

 

[KingOtis]

I honestly do not know the answer to this, but did Donaghy referee each of LeBron's play off games against Detroit where you claim the NBA playoffs are fixed. Because if Donaghy didn't referee those games it nullifies your only piece of evidence.

You honestly believe Tim Donaghy is an anomaly?

To claim Hollingers stats and stats similar to win shares aren't really relevant I'm not sure is accurate. Do yourself a favor and google MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference.

If you want to cite a source, cite it.

Having said that, as much a I love Carmelo and hope he can bring Knicks back to glory, he along with anyone in the rest of the league just isn't better than LeBron. LeBron is the best player in the world right now. Any unbiased look at the numbers and the fact he EFFECTIVELY guards positions 1-5 shows he is on his own level. It is truly remarkable that he can lock up Pau Gasol, Carmelo, Derrick Rose, and Chris Paul and do it all without making it even appear it could be a mismatch for the offensive player.

Yes, the positives are there. There are also negatives. He's not a clutch player and he has questionable heart. Going to Miami was a cop out. It's hard to call someone the best player when he's lacking these qualities. The most talented or the most athletic? Sure. But remember, an NFL player can win Offensive Player of the Year and another player who plays the same position can win MVP.

Right now, James is Dan Marino.

(Maybe Miami's the perfect spot for him after all.)

 

[44cuse]

He's not a clutch player

Wrong.

Clutch Stats

But those are just stats. They don't mean anything.

44cuse

 

[44cuse]

Begging the question...

Who has more game-winning shots? Who gets criticized for his play at the end of big games?

I don't know what to tell you. You are arguing against the facts:

LeBron is better at: Pts, Reb, Ast, TS% and eFG% in the clutch.

But let's talk about game winning shots specifically:
Game Winning Shot Opportunity = 24 seconds or less left in the game, team with the ball is either tied or down by 1 to 2 points.

This is `03-`04 to `08-`09 (it's the latest data set I have found)

Leading "Game Winning Shot" Players
Player Fgm Fga Fg% Ftm Fta Ast T/O
League Wide 853 2858 .298 610 815 352 296
LeBron James 17 50 .340 14 20 6 4
Vince Carter 16 51 .314 10 11 3 4
Ray Allen 15 39 .385 4 6 1 2
Kobe Bryant 14 56 .250 12 15 1 5
Carmelo Anthony 13 27 .481 7 11 1 4

44cuse