NBA 2017-2018 thread

[OttoinGrotto]

Kyrie is a lot better than Isaiah IMO.

Kyrie is a top 15 player. I love IT but it will burnout a lot sooner because the beatings he takes will take their toll a lot sooner than Irving. IT is 28 while Kyrie is 25. I would make the deal I offered if I were Ainge.
If Cleveland trades Kyrie this offseason I think Toronto or Boston could win the East next year.

Ainge needs to cash in some of these assets for a more established player. Everyone keeps saying Anthony Davis but I don't see it happening for another few years.

I don't see how Boston is going to have the contracts to make an Ant Davis move work. They're trending towards a bunch of maxes and filler.

 

[Alsacs]

I think IT is fool's gold. Little guards don't age well. Kyrie, for all his faults, does have a ring, in large part because he made plays.

Plus, gotta remember... contracts matter. Two years (at least) of Kyrie at those dollars is noice. He barely makes more than Biyombo. I'd rather have Kyrie for two years at his current contract rather than one of IT on a friendly deal and one on a contract that's way, way too high.

Man, last off-season was just really stupid. I go back and forth between convincing myself that NBA front office people are smart, to then having to confront realities like how stupid the contracts were last off-season because nobody could live with being patient.

Last year's spending was the players fault for not agreeing to roll the cap space up thru multiple offseason so more FA classes could get paid.

Instead the top stars drew a line in the sand and said no so the FAs last summer got all the benefits. Cap space for next offseason is extremely thin and those FAs will suffer. All non-elite guys should take shorter deals than allow them to be FAs in 3 years when. Last years deals will all expire and teams will be flush with cash again.

 

[Alsacs]

I don't see how Boston is going to have the contracts to make an Ant Davis move work. They're trending towards a bunch of maxes and filler.

Horford easy. He will be older and less elite. His contract will be the cash and the assets will go along.
If the Celtics get Davis Horford won't be necessary anyway.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Horford easy. He will be older and less elite. His contract will be the cash and the assets will go along.
If the Celtics get Davis Horford won't be necessary anyway.

That's really the only option, but if I'm the Pelicans and I'm taking Horford from Beantown, I'm demanding all the draft picks.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Last year's spending was the players fault for not agreeing to roll the cap space up thru multiple offseason so more FA classes could get paid.

Instead the top stars drew a line in the sand and said no so the FAs last summer got all the benefits. Cap space for next offseason is extremely thin and those FAs will suffer. All non-elite guys should take shorter deals than allow them to be FAs in 3 years when. Last years deals will all expire and teams will be flush with cash again.

The thing is though, both the players and front offices were dumb. The players for not agreeing to smooth the cap, and the owners for handing out stupid contracts.

 

[Alsacs]

That's really the only option, but if I'm the Pelicans and I'm taking Horford from Beantown, I'm demanding all the draft picks.

If the Pelicans move Davis it's obvious the Celtics would have to give up atleast 3 of the following
Jaylen Brown
Jayson Tatum
2018 Brooklyn pick
2918 Lakers pick or 2019 Kings pick

 

[OttoinGrotto]

If the Pelicans move Davis it's obvious the Celtics would have to give up atleast 3 of the following
Jaylen Brown
Jayson Tatum
2018 Brooklyn pick
2918 Lakers pick or 2019 Kings pick

All the draft picks.

 

[Alsacs]

All the draft picks.

They aren't getting all 4 of what I described. The Celtics have other picks they give up like 2019 Memphis pick and 2019 Clippers pick as well.
They aren't giving up all 4 for Anthony Davis or the Deal is pointless.

3 of those 4 is probably the max offer. Nobody else in the league can come close to that type of package if Davis became available.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

They aren't getting all 4 of what I described. The Celtics have other picks they give up like 2019 Memphis pick and 2019 Clippers pick as well.
They aren't giving up all 4 for Anthony Davis or the Deal is pointless.

3 of those 4 is probably the max offer. Nobody else in the league can come close to that type of package if Davis became available.

That's what Ainge would ask for.:noidea:

 

[Arangeman]

I think IT is fool's gold.

Yup. Whoever maxes out Thomas will sabotage their team.

 

[Trueblue25]

Right? He and Thomas are basically equals. Kyrie, Lillard, Thomas, Wall...the 2nd echelon type of guys.

I'd argue Wall's a level above them. Better defensively, improving and already arguably just as good offensively.

 

[Knicks411]

I think Isaiah from last year is basically as good as Kyrie is, maybe a little worse because of how bad defensively he is, but what are the odds you another year like last year out of IT? Pretty low I'd say.

Davis is locked up for the next 4 years, I think we're probably at least 2 years away from any potential deal.

 

[Trueblue25]

I think Isaiah from last year is basically as good as Kyrie is, maybe a little worse because of how bad defensively he is, but what are the odds you another year like last year out of IT? Pretty low I'd say.

Davis is locked up for the next 4 years, I think we're probably at least 2 years away from any potential deal.

Kyrie's just as bad/absent defensively. You could say "at least he"s bigger" but i really dont care. Not an improvement, just a bigger body

 

[MikeSU02]

Kyrie's just as bad/absent defensively. You could say "at least he"s bigger" but i really dont care. Not an improvement, just a bigger body

I love watching Kyrie. When he goes off on a heat check, it's a thing of beauty. His handle is either best or second best in the league.

With all of that said, the guy has never won anything without Bron. LeBron makes other players' potential so much higher.

He isn't in my top tier of elite players (Bron, KD, Kawhi, Steph, Russ, Harden, Ant Davis with CP3 basically slipping out of that list). He is in the second group after that.

At some point you can't mortgage your future for Kyrie unless you are convinced you can make him much more team-oriented than he is now.

All of this is to say, I agree regarding the swap for IT.

 

[Fireball Jr.]

Hope Derrick Rose has some game left. Just digesting this, initial reaction: I like this more than I don't. Beats a sharp stick in the eye. And, just a gut feeling, I think Kyrie's gone, if for no other reason that the Cavs would rather hold onto LeBron next summer than Kyrie, so time for the hot young new Cavs gm Koby Altman to show what kinda game he's got.

Sources: Rose, Cavaliers agree to 1-year deal

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I love watching Kyrie. When he goes off on a heat check, it's a thing of beauty. His handle is either best or second best in the league.

With all of that said, the guy has never won anything without Bron. LeBron makes other players' potential so much higher.

He isn't in my top tier of elite players (Bron, KD, Kawhi, Steph, Russ, Harden, Ant Davis with CP3 basically slipping out of that list). He is in the second group after that.

At some point you can't mortgage your future for Kyrie unless you are convinced you can make him much more team-oriented than he is now.

All of this is to say, I agree regarding the swap for IT.

Just curious, since your list seems to correlate with winning, why so high on Ant Davis?

 

[Melancer46]

Regarding all the Kyrie stuff, I'm guessing Cleveland doesn't trade him to Boston unless they're getting Jaylen or Jayson + the Brooklyn pick; a crazy asking price, but I doubt they want to tip the odds in Boston's favor or risk even a remote chance that Kyrie gets revenge on them in the ECF, and I don't think they'd have any interest in Isaiah.

My guess is Kyrie doesn't end up on any of those 4 teams that he prefers with my main guess being Phoenix. I actually think my Bucks should be interested and could make a strong offer if they wanted to, but I doubt we actually go for it despite the shady tweet here and there suggesting that we've already been attempting to get him.

Phoenix: something like Bledsoe + Chriss or Bender + one other piece maybe?

Milwaukee (don't think we'll actually try, but): Jabari, Brogdon, one of our contracts to fit salary wise, and maybe a protected 1st.

I think Sacramento could target him as well.

And in the "should, but won't" category, I'd say Utah and Denver.

 

[Knicks411]

Hope Derrick Rose has some game left. Just digesting this, initial reaction: I like this more than I don't. Beats a sharp stick in the eye. And, just a gut feeling, I think Kyrie's gone, if for no other reason that the Cavs would rather hold onto LeBron next summer than Kyrie, so time for the hot young new Cavs gm Koby Altman to show what kinda game he's got.

Sources: Rose, Cavaliers agree to 1-year deal

Rose is a terrible player. Hated his year in NY.

Regarding all the Kyrie stuff, I'm guessing Cleveland doesn't trade him to Boston unless they're getting Jaylen or Jayson + the Brooklyn pick; a crazy asking price, but I doubt they want to tip the odds in Boston's favor or risk even a remote chance that Kyrie gets revenge on them in the ECF, and I don't think they'd have any interest in Isaiah.

My guess is Kyrie doesn't end up on any of those 4 teams that he prefers with my main guess being Phoenix. I actually think my Bucks should be interested and could make a strong offer if they wanted to, but I doubt we actually go for it despite the shady tweet here and there suggesting that we've already been attempting to get him.

Phoenix: something like Bledsoe + Chriss or Bender + one other piece maybe?

Milwaukee (don't think we'll actually try, but): Jabari, Brogdon, one of our contracts to fit salary wise, and maybe a protected 1st.

I think Sacramento could target him as well.

And in the "should, but won't" category, I'd say Utah and Denver.

Fwiw, Zach lowe had a big Kyrie article, and his bucks package was built around Middleton and Brogdon.

 

[Melancer46]

Rose is a terrible player. Hated his year in NY.



Fwiw, Zach lowe had a big Kyrie article, and his bucks package was built around Middleton and Brogdon.

Yeah, Middleton obviously makes more sense for Cleveland if they're trying to remain in the Finals hunt this season, which I assume they would be. I'm not sure how badly I'd want to make that trade from the Bucks end though. Kyrie is a great player, and his ability to create in the halfcourt would hugely benefit this team since Giannis still struggles a bit at that. On the flipside, having both Kyrie and Jabari is probably catastrophic defensively. And on the flip-flipside, one of the underrated parts about acquiring Kyrie is that Milwaukee could potentially attract a third star to play with Kyrie and Giannis if they're able to clear the cap space to fit another in.

If hypothetically, we assume the deal ends up being Middleton + Brogdon for Kyrie, Milwaukee would be left with a lineup this season of:

PG: Kyrie
SG: Sterling Brown?
SF: Tony Snell
PF: Giannis
C: Monroe/Thon

I don't know...the SG/SF position would be brutally thin in the short-term at least.

I guess I'd probably expect Middleton to be the centerpiece, but I would hope that it would instead be Jabari, who Cleveland could convince themselves would potentially give them someone to build around if Lebron leaves in a year.

 

[Knicks411]

Kyrie is just such an intriguing player. He has some obvious strengths, but also, some pretty clear weaknesses. Can you really be a great team with him as the key guy? But also, say you're a team like the Bucks; you probably aren't going to be attracting high level FA talent, so is there anything wrong with taking a shot at teaming up Freak and Kyrie? It's easy to trash a team that tops out at low 50s wins and maybe winning a round or two in the playoffs, but the last time the Bucks did either of those things was 2001. Since 1990, they've won 2 playoff series and won over 50 games one time.

 

[Melancer46]

Kyrie is just such an intriguing player. He has some obvious strengths, but also, some pretty clear weaknesses. Can you really be a great team with him as the key guy? But also, say you're a team like the Bucks; you probably aren't going to be attracting high level FA talent, so is there anything wrong with taking a shot at teaming up Freak and Kyrie? It's easy to trash a team that tops out at low 50s wins and maybe winning a round or two in the playoffs, but the last time the Bucks did either of those things was 2001. Since 1990, they've won 2 playoff series and won over 50 games one time.

Yup. I think Kyrie is probably overrated a bit (or at least I did until these past few days...the backlash against him since this report came out seems to be over the top IMO), but I'm 100% in favor of Milwaukee trying to acquire him. If we could keep Giannis, Middleton, and Thon while acquiring him, that would be wonderful IMO.

 

[Knicks411]

Yup. I think Kyrie is probably overrated a bit (or at least I did until these past few days...the backlash against him since this report came out seems to be over the top IMO), but I'm 100% in favor of Milwaukee trying to acquire him. If we could keep Giannis, Middleton, and Thon while acquiring him, that would be wonderful IMO.

The guy is a devastating offensive player. The fact that he wants to get away from a situation where he's essentially guaranteed a trip to the finals is a little concerning to me though

 

[Melancer46]

The guy is a devastating offensive player. The fact that he wants to get away from a situation where he's essentially guaranteed a trip to the finals is a little concerning to me though

It is, but I also think it's understandable if it's for the following reasons and not at all about getting a bigger role (which is basically impossible no matter where he goes).

1. Cleveland is entirely built around LeBron's skillset and LeBron might be leaving in a year. Kyrie will look bad if the team is placed on his shoulders and they're suddenly a borderline playoff team or worse.
2. He just wants some damn stability/to escape that ownership.
3. He thinks that even if he succeeds without LeBron in Cleveland, he'll always be in LeBron's shadow.

Kyrie already got his ring; I can't really blame him for wanting to carve out his own path now.

 

[Knicks411]

It is, but I also think it's understandable if it's for the following reasons and not at all about getting a bigger role (which is basically impossible no matter where he goes).

1. Cleveland is entirely built around LeBron's skillset and LeBron might be leaving in a year. Kyrie will look bad if the team is placed on his shoulders and they're suddenly a borderline playoff team or worse.
2. He just wants some damn stability/to escape that ownership.
3. He thinks that even if he succeeds without LeBron in Cleveland, he'll always be in LeBron's shadow.

Kyrie already got his ring; I can't really blame him for wanting to carve out his own path now.

You can read it that way, in which case the interpretation is much kinder to Kyrie. (1 was my initial thought, he has a strong feeling Lebron is leaving in the summer and wants to get out in front of it in some way).

I'd probably want to sit down and talk to the guy before I committed to him though

 

[MikeSU02]

Just curious, since your list seems to correlate with winning, why so high on Ant Davis?

Very fair question.

To me, he has a larger skill set (that is constantly expanding), good attitude, and a big that can guard the rim.

I really don't want to come off as anti-Kyrie, but I think if Ant Davis was put in a better situation, even a marginally ok one, I think he would be leading teams to 3-4 seeds in the East.

One note, I absolutely forgot Giannis. Who I would slot into CP3's top tier place.