NBA Thread 2022-23 Season

[Knicks411]

I don’t think Utah accepts that.

Probably not. Was trying to talk myself into them accepting it. I'm sure they're sending out at least 2 of the protected ones they are due. If they can keep it to 2 unprotected ones I think I can deal with it

 

[jordville]

I saw LeBron joined DeMar today in the Drew League. DeRozan is a regular. Bron hasn't played in it for 10 years or so. If you didn't watch, there are a lot of highlights on Twitter. I'll link one of them...
I didn't see Uncle Drew though.

 

[jncuse]

Probably not. Was trying to talk myself into them accepting it. I'm sure they're sending out at least 2 of the protected ones they are due. If they can keep it to 2 unprotected ones I think I can deal with it

Perhaps I am basing things too much off the Rudy Gobert scale and the fact that Ainge could decide to wait for a while if he chooses. Ainge may not want Mitchell playing due to lotto balls for a top 2 pick, so he may not want to wait either.

I don't think the 4 protected picks are worth that much... they make the sum of picks exchanged look worse than they may be. 3 of the 4 were essentially acquired for the 11th pick this year.

 

[jncuse]

The Knicks are too desperate so they're going to get fleeced. And Ainge is just the perfect guy to do it.
In 2 years when Toppin and Grimes are all stars and the Knicks gave up 3-4 of their own unprotected 1st rounders the hoop pundits will be skewering the Knicks for this trade. I still can't get over how the Knicks passed on drafting Mitchell, who they should have taken, and could have avoided all this. Very likely they will be left with no quality young depth after this. Rumors this a.m. are deal would include Toppin, Quickley, Grimes and McBride and 5 1st round picks. And with little to no draft capital how do they improve or add any quality depth other than journeymen scrubs?

Toppin and Grimes all stars in 2 years?
is this real life?

 

[MSOrange]

 

[OrangeDW]

Skip is just the worst. If he was sitting next to me at a bar and tried to engage me in sports conversation, I’d get up and move to the other end.

 

[Melancer46]

I was trying to come up with a package with my buddy that would A) not make me want to kill myself and B) I could talk myself into Utah accepting I was thinking something like 2 of IQ/Obi/Grimey, 1 of the protected ones they have coming in and 2 knicks ones. Plus Fournier or whatever to get the salaries.

I think something like that plus a couple pick swaps could potentially be where this ends up. If the Knicks have their choice, I'd include Obi & IQ rather than Grimes & _____ but it seems like Utah will be insisting on Grimes and you can't keep both RJ and Grimes off limits.

That Jones dude is a good reporter on the Jazz but I don't buy the idea whatever deal was "close" was anywhere near what he reported Utah was asking for. I would guess both things he said were kinda true, that the Knicks and Jazz feel like a deal could and maybe likely will happen, and that the Jazz asked for all of those things. But I would guess that was Utah's initial proposal and have been talked down significantly from that.

Even for the Knicks, 4 young talented prospects plus 6 first round picks just doesn't pass the smell test to me.

 

[Knicks411]

I think something like that plus a couple pick swaps could potentially be where this ends up. If the Knicks have their choice, I'd include Obi & IQ rather than Grimes & _____ but it seems like Utah will be insisting on Grimes and you can't keep both RJ and Grimes off limits.

That Jones dude is a good reporter on the Jazz but I don't buy the idea whatever deal was "close" was anywhere near what he reported Utah was asking for. I would guess both things he said were kinda true, that the Knicks and Jazz feel like a deal could and maybe likely will happen, and that the Jazz asked for all of those things. But I would guess that was Utah's initial proposal and have been talked down significantly from that.

Even for the Knicks, 4 young talented prospects plus 6 first round picks just doesn't pass the smell test to me.

Like I said before, it really just seems like the NBA media is trying to will the Knicks into giving up this complete haul for Mitchell. I get the Gobert trade kinda reset the market (maybe?) but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to beat the package to get Mitchell. Danny Ainge can't just force you to make a trade. (I think. I'm going to check on that)

I agree on Grimes; I rank the 3 Knicks young guys (in order I want to keep) 1) Grimes, 2) Obi, and 3) IQ.

Skip is just the worst. If he was sitting next to me at a bar and tried to engage me in sports conversation, I’d get up and move to the other end.

Dude makes like $10 million? At least let him buy you a couple of beers...

 

[Melancer46]

Like I said before, it really just seems like the NBA media is trying to will the Knicks into giving up this complete haul for Mitchell. I get the Gobert trade kinda reset the market (maybe?) but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to beat the package to get Mitchell. Danny Ainge can't just force you to make a trade. (I think. I'm going to check on that)

I agree on Grimes; I rank the 3 Knicks young guys (in order I want to keep) 1) Grimes, 2) Obi, and 3) IQ.

I think the Knicks will ultimately give up a lot for Mitchell, but I don't think anyone truly believes the type of package Jones alluded to is really on the table.

I think Mitchell is worth it for the Knicks, but the concern there is once you get him, you're pretty much locked into Brunson/Mitchell/RJ as your trio (unless you trade one of them) due to how much cap they'll be taking up and it seems extremely difficult to envision that trio being more than a 1st or 2nd round playoff exit. All 3 guys are capable of taking their games to a new level though IMO so maybe something like that will happen and the Knicks will end up being really good.

 

[jncuse]

Even for the Knicks, 4 young talented prospects plus 6 first round picks just doesn't pass the smell test to me.

If those 5 or 6 picks include the 4 protected picks it really limits the damage, and makes the pick haul look worse than it actually is. 3 of those 4 picks were acquired with the #11 pick so they don't hold too much value.

I assume though Ainge is setting his baseline at 3 unprotected picks and the negotiations are over how many of the unprotected picks and swaps they will get.

 

[OrangeDW]

Like I said before, it really just seems like the NBA media is trying to will the Knicks into giving up this complete haul for Mitchell. I get the Gobert trade kinda reset the market (maybe?) but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to beat the package to get Mitchell. Danny Ainge can't just force you to make a trade. (I think. I'm going to check on that)

I agree on Grimes; I rank the 3 Knicks young guys (in order I want to keep) 1) Grimes, 2) Obi, and 3) IQ.



Dude makes like $10 million? At least let him buy you a couple of beers...

Not worth the annoyance. Lol.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

So a few things I've been thinking about re: the current NBA trade market... first off, Murray really set the market and established first round picks as the primary currency of interest. That deal seemingly came out of nowhere but definitely planted the flag. No doubt Ainge used that to benchmark with the T'Wolves.

Second, one thing that's been unusual about the guys getting traded/rumored to be traded is that they all have lots of time left on their contract. None of them come with a one year rental risk, they're all players that are going to be core guys for a while and could be resigned with Bird rights. That's definitely escalating the value, and the gamble from the different teams is all logical. The team getting the star is doing it assuming that they're going to be pretty good so the picks aren't a huge deal to give up, and the trading team is banking on something going haywire so they get a really good draft slot.

Third, the narrative on the Gobert trade has gotten kind of funny. Yeah it's 4 picks, but then you have people say "well really it's 5 because Kessler counts" and I've even seen some say that Balmero counts as another first because he's still on his rookie deal, hasn't played a ton, was a former 1st rounder, etc. I feel like if you didn't make the pick it's goofy counting it as a pick - you traded for a player.

Last thought on the Knicks, none of the contracts on the books are killers and RJ's won't be. Cap goes up, you convert Randle's into something more useful... I think the Knicks would be positioned pretty well to make some moves in the future with a really solid core. Plus, as we've seen, it's almost impossible for a contract to become completely untradable. You could move a guy to get better.

 

[Knicks411]

I think the Knicks will ultimately give up a lot for Mitchell, but I don't think anyone truly believes the type of package Jones alluded to is really on the table.

I think Mitchell is worth it for the Knicks, but the concern there is once you get him, you're pretty much locked into Brunson/Mitchell/RJ as your trio (unless you trade one of them) due to how much cap they'll be taking up and it seems extremely difficult to envision that trio being more than a 1st or 2nd round playoff exit. All 3 guys are capable of taking their games to a new level though IMO so maybe something like that will happen and the Knicks will end up being really good.

The pro trade for Mitchell argument thrown out there is he would basically be the first real piece and would make the team more attractive to another star in a year or two. And the cap is going to go up a fair amount with the new TV deal.

May not be the best look due to the connections, but the Brunson deal is declining (and includes a player option which probably will be declined). Maybe he ends up going out for another star in 18 months.

I am also curious to see what the RJ extension looks like. I'm not a huge fan of his and they go with something close to the max that could be an issue.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Yeah Obi, Grimes, IQ are quality young nba starters/sixth men but I don’t see any of them being all stars. Nothing wrong with that though. Plenty of solid players that are not all stars. Knicks would be truly out of their mind trading them all.

 

[jncuse]

The pro trade for Mitchell argument thrown out there is he would basically be the first real piece and would make the team more attractive to another star in a year or two. And the cap is going to go up a fair amount with the new TV deal.

May not be the best look due to the connections, but the Brunson deal is declining (and includes a player option which probably will be declined). Maybe he ends up going out for another star in 18 months.

I am also curious to see what the RJ extension looks like. I'm not a huge fan of his and they go with something close to the max that could be an issue.

I assume if the Knicks start to roll, they will be heavy in the tax, so wouldn't worry too much about RJ Barrett's next contract.

The strategy would probably be flipping one player with bigger contract and young/draft capital (Brunson or Barrett) to get someone beside Mitchell (and one of Brunson or Barrett). The problem is Its hard to do 2 all-in trades in the current environment because you are tied up so many picks and swaps in the first one. I guess if the Knicks could somehow get away with 2 unprotected + 2 protected + 1 swap in this Mitchell deal, that leaves them 2+2+1 for a future trade if they flip one of Brunson or Barrett.

 

[jncuse]

Yeah Obi, Grimes, IQ are quality young nba starters/sixth men but I don’t see any of them being all stars. Nothing wrong with that though. Plenty of solid players that are not all stars. Knicks would be truly out of their mind trading them all.

Nobody outside of New York considers them close to future all stars -- and I am sure well over half of Knicks fans think the same. But the outlier Knicks fan base is known for ridiculous hyperbole.
,

 

[Knicks411]

I assume if the Knicks start to roll, they will be heavy in the tax, so wouldn't worry too much about RJ Barrett's next contract.

The strategy would probably be flipping one player with bigger contract and young/draft capital (Brunson or Barrett) to get someone beside Mitchell (and one of Brunson or Barrett). The problem is Its hard to do 2 all-in trades in the current environment because you are tied up so many picks and swaps in the first one. I guess if the Knicks could somehow get away with 2 unprotected + 2 protected + 1 swap in this Mitchell deal, that leaves them 2+2+1 for a future trade if they flip one of Brunson or Barrett.

Especially if they trade their 23 first, if you assume the next trade comes in a year or so, the 23 draft is already done so you don't need to worry about it. For instance, say you traded 23/25 first and 24 swap, if you're trying to make a deal next summer you'd still be able to trade 26/28/30 ones if you wanted to.

 

[MikeSU02]

If we go big for Mitchell, it has to be because the next star is basically locked for this year or next year to come.

Otherwise it isn’t worth it. Getting Mitchell immediately depreciates Brunson’s value on the Knicks.

Also, Thibs and Mitchell won’t be able to coexist, especially if Randle is still on the team. D Mitch decided to stop playing defense in the playoffs. Just stopped. He pulls that in NYC, he’ll be booed into oblivion.

Knicks either need to have the next star lined up or be willing to trade Brunson once he’s eligible bc two 6’1” guards will not cut it.

Btw - Minnesota has been out of the first round of the playoffs 1x in 33 years. You make that Gobert trade 10 out of 10 times and if it makes the rest of the league mad, so be it.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

If we go big for Mitchell, it has to be because the next star is basically locked for this year or next year to come.

Otherwise it isn’t worth it. Getting Mitchell immediately depreciates Brunson’s value on the Knicks.

Also, Thibs and Mitchell won’t be able to coexist, especially if Randle is still on the team. D Mitch decided to stop playing defense in the playoffs. Just stopped. He pulls that in NYC, he’ll be booed into oblivion.

Knicks either need to have the next star lined up or be willing to trade Brunson once he’s eligible bc two 6’1” guards will not cut it.

Btw - Minnesota has been out of the first round of the playoffs 1x in 33 years. You make that Gobert trade 10 out of 10 times and if it makes the rest of the league mad, so be it.

Oh I think Brunson's days are numbered and is going to be very easy to move.

 

[OrangeDW]

Oh I think Brunson's days are numbered and is going to be very easy to move.

Lol, they just signed him!? This league is nuts.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Lol, they just signed him!? This league is nuts.

Just saying, I won't be surprised at all if he gets traded over the course of his contract.

 

[MikeSU02]

Just saying, I won't be surprised at all if he gets traded over the course of his contract.

It’s declining in salary each year. Combine that with the new media deal in a few years and it will be very movable.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

It’s declining in salary each year. Combine that with the new media deal in a few years and it will be very movable.

Exactly.

 

[jncuse]

If we go big for Mitchell, it has to be because the next star is basically locked for this year or next year to come.

Otherwise it isn’t worth it. Getting Mitchell immediately depreciates Brunson’s value on the Knicks.

Also, Thibs and Mitchell won’t be able to coexist, especially if Randle is still on the team. D Mitch decided to stop playing defense in the playoffs. Just stopped. He pulls that in NYC, he’ll be booed into oblivion.

Knicks either need to have the next star lined up or be willing to trade Brunson once he’s eligible bc two 6’1” guards will not cut it.

Btw - Minnesota has been out of the first round of the playoffs 1x in 33 years. You make that Gobert trade 10 out of 10 times and if it makes the rest of the league mad, so be it.

I agree on your Mitchell point. Which is why I mentioned above the Knicks have to keep at least half their young player / draft equity in this trade, and I am sure they are aware of that. In hindsight it justifies their splitting the 11th pick in this draft into later picks as it may have more use in the future for trades.

As for Gobert, I can't fully agree with the all in move on a 30 year old that may be declining and I'm not sure about the Gobert/Towns dynamic in the playoffs. I thought it might have made more sense to go after another good defensive big, and kept the draft capital for another move over the next year. Edwards was still growing, I thought the push in move may have been better made next year.

Of course you are betting against another opportunity coming again (and that star wanting to play in Minny) so that justifies the move. So it goes both ways.

I still think they gave up way too much and not sure who they were bidding against for Gobert. Leaving out one of the picks + Kesler takes out a few chips you had to round out the squad later on. That being said that player or picks may not be difference makers. So if Ainge is being hard-nosed, its a hard call.



Thought the Wolves could have waiting a little longer to make At the same time thought lets say the overpayment was Kessler + one unportected

 

[jncuse]

Lol, they just signed him!? This league is nuts.

Big markets can tend to do that, because players want to go there and will overlook things.

Becomes a little trickier when you are a small or mid-market team, when your push to a suitor is that the organization is strong and has a good and loyal culture.

I will give you an example - in the summer of 2018 a big story amongst the US Media who almost always ignores the Raptors was how Masai Ujiri (Raptors GM) did Demar Derozan dirty. Demar went to the media and said that the Raptors had promised not to trade him -- which wasn't a totally fair representation of what happened. That cut-throat / disloyal narrative lingered for a while, even if it was inaccurate.