NBA Thread 2022-23 Season

[chugg21]

But the path one takes to try and achieve that is what is in question here not the goal. Other than the Lebron's teams almost every NBA champion the past 20 years has been built organically not through high priced trades or free agency. It is LeBron as well. Yeah KD went to Golden St but the core group was already there.

Phoenix is the lastest taking that shot but with their new owner you kind of knew it would happen

And it's the right move for them. There is definitely pain coming down the road with those missing picks once CP3 and Durant are long gone but banners fly forever and they have at least 2 tip-top shots at nabbing one.

 

[Knicks411]

But the path one takes to try and achieve that is what is in question here not the goal. Other than the Lebron's teams almost every NBA champion the past 20 years has been built organically not through high priced trades or free agency. It is LeBron as well. Yeah KD went to Golden St but the core group was already there.

Phoenix is the lastest taking that shot but with their new owner you kind of knew it would happen

I don't know, I guess? I mean can't you say the core is already in Phoenix? They went to the finals 2 years ago. And other than Lebron's teams takes out like 25% of the champions over of the last 20 years. The Bucks didn't win until they made a big trade for Jrue Holiday. Lakers with Gasol. Obviously Celtics with KG and Ray Allen. Miami didnt win until they traded for Shaq. 2011 Dallas was Dirk and a bunch of guys they signed/traded for.

 

[shandeezy7]

Knicks have to do another deal - too many players who do the same thing.

I'm assuming they are working to move Fournier and hopefully D Rose today.

 

[jncuse]

The Nets had to know Durant was gone too. Two role player vets are useless for them.

Dinwiddie and DFA have future trade value beyond this year (not great but some)- protected first type value as standalone players, or as fillers in future trades, so the ultimate future assets they get from this will be a bit beyond just the 29 Mavs Pick.

The value from the Lakers trade was fixed (2 Lakers Pick likely with some protection based on what we saw in the Jazz/Wolves trade). Westbrook would have been cut or played it out - he had no flip value.

Within a year the value between the deals in terms of futures is not going to be much different.

The Nets tried to play both sides, while being able to get to the similar return in the end if they have to flip.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I don't know, I guess? I mean can't you say the core is already in Phoenix? They went to the finals 2 years ago. And other than Lebron's teams takes out like 25% of the champions over of the last 20 years. The Bucks didn't win until they made a big trade for Jrue Holiday. Lakers with Gasol. Obviously Celtics with KG and Ray Allen. Miami didnt win until they traded for Shaq. 2011 Dallas was Dirk and a bunch of guys they signed/traded for.

I am talking about giving up 4 first rounders and a bunch of good players type trades. No issue with trades etc with teams trading to get great pieces around their stars. So Lakers win the bubble now look where they are with the AD and Russ trades, is it worth it? I guess. They will fight to get into the play in. LeBron does nothing but leave scorched earth behind him but is what it is, kind of have to do it

Bucks needed a push over the top and Jrue was a great fit, they also had Giannis and Middleton, they didn't try and assemble some super team. They had their core. They gave up some first rounders but zero talent really.

Dallas built around Dirk who was there for 20 years, different.

I don't any of these situations are all that similar to the Nets though. Like I said the gambled time and time again and it kept failing. They are left with worthless Ben Simmons a few good wings.

 

[Melancer46]

You made me go back and watch it, it was a little long I think. So I guess if he was just a scooch back maybe its still fine? But who knows.

To me the point is more about how thin the margins are. They lose in the second round and are a failure, but if one miniscule thing goes the other way they (IMO of course) end up winning the title.

I went to that game 7. I was a neutral observer. (Ok i was def rooting for the Bucks). But I just remember how Q4 and OT were just so damn tense. You could feel it. Both teams felt totally exhausted. Bucks won the OT period 6-2, and that includes 2 FT Brook Lopez made after he was fouled essentially right at the buzzer, so it 4-2 in the competitive portion of the OT. I'm reading the PBP, Nets scored on the first possession of OT, then didnt score for the final 4 and a half minutes. Bucks didn't score in the first 3:45 of OT.

That was one of the most exhausting games I’ve ever watched as a Bucks fan. Durant seemingly taking and missing every shot for Brooklyn in OT was incredible. Tucker and Jrue and co. had him so exhausted by the end.

And then the Bucks still had to survive the ECF without Giannis and a grueling NBA Finals.

 

[Melancer46]

I'm assuming they are working to move Fournier and hopefully D Rose today.

I’ve seen numerous reports at this point that the Bucks are interested in Rose. I can’t imagine it would be in a trade; matching his salary would cost Milwaukee basically all of their reasonably moveable contracts and would likely be a downgrade talent wise at that point. But seems like he’ll likely be bought out if the Knicks can’t find a trade partner and then I can definitely see Milwaukee getting involved.

 

[jncuse]

Other side of the Jazz trade - they got themselves a load of cap room.

They won't use it on crazy free agents. It'll be used to facilitate teams getting off of bad contracts for good assets.

I view it as clearing $24M which is still very substantial - the Conley contract which also has a $14m buyout. Beasley was expiring anyway and Vanderbilt could have been traded for an expiring if traded separately.

Breaking down the deal into components:
Beasley + Vanderbilt for Lakers 27 First with top 4 protection (good value because you would not have got a better pick if trying to move them individually - quality over quantity)

Conley + 3 second round picks for Nothing. Basically the cost to unwind themselves of the Conley contract and clear $24M of cap space was 3 second rounders. Pretty good, because I assume they will find more value than 3 second rounders using that cap space in other manners.

I guess they do less that veteran point guard which they will want for next year, but it can be acquired much more cheaply as well via FA.

So looking at the deal from those components I probably raise my grade for the Jazz even a bit higher.

I actually feel the deal helps everyone:
- Lakers obviously
- Jazz move forward with their asset building plan
- Wolves didn't really have the cap to get a FA at point next year. Conley is overpaid, but he is a probably a good fit with 2 other primary offensive options in Towns and Edwards ... and get a few seconds outof it. Conley is a better fit than Russell I think.

 

[Knicks411]

I am talking about giving up 4 first rounders and a bunch of good players type trades. No issue with trades etc with teams trading to get great pieces around their stars. So Lakers win the bubble now look where they are with the AD and Russ trades, is it worth it? I guess. They will fight to get into the play in. LeBron does nothing but leave scorched earth behind him but is what it is, kind of have to do it

Bucks needed a push over the top and Jrue was a great fit, they also had Giannis and Middleton, they didn't try and assemble some super team. They had their core. They gave up some first rounders but zero talent really.

Dallas built around Dirk who was there for 20 years, different.

I don't any of these situations are all that similar to the Nets though. Like I said the gambled time and time again and it kept failing. They are left with worthless Ben Simmons a few good wings.

Sorry, I thought you were referring to the Suns here more than the Nets. Probably I misread what you were saying. The closest analogue to what the Nets tried to do would either be the Lakers or the Heat I think. Heat did have Wade, but he was a FA at that point and could've walked, I guess. I have to say I think it was worth it for the Lakers; they won a title. That's the point. Though the surrounding years have been very underwhelming. (I was with them on the AD trade, but the Russ trade was a disaster from the jump. I wonder how different the last 2 years are without that deal)

That was one of the most exhausting games I’ve ever watched as a Bucks fan. Durant seemingly taking and missing every shot for Brooklyn in OT was incredible. Tucker and Jrue and co. had him so exhausted by the end.

And then the Bucks still had to survive the ECF without Giannis and a grueling NBA Finals.

I was exhausted after that game, and I didn't really care all that much who won. That's the most high stakes NBA game I've ever been to

 

[jncuse]

I'm assuming they are working to move Fournier and hopefully D Rose today.

Trading Fournier today is difficult. - there are two scenarios to move him.
1) Knicks using draft capital or young players with value to get out of his contract.
2) Finding another limited player with a bad contract around $19m that expires next year, and hoping change of environments work for both players.

Scenario #1 makes zero sense. Why would the Knicks use draft assets or young playes to get rid of him? The Knicks are headed above the salary cap line anyway for next year so trying to clear his contract for cap space accomplishes nothing.

Scenario #2 is very hard - can only be a few contracts like that in the league/

The role for Fournier now is to sit his butt on the bench, hopefully not complain, and then potentially be a filler in a Knicks consolidation trade next year when he is an expiring contract (since 24/25 is a club option).

 

[Melancer46]

Bucks finally get Crowder. Guessing we gave up Nwora, Ibaka, and George Hill in the process as well as a boatload of 2nds.

 

[Knicks411]

Trading Fournier today is difficult. - there are two scenarios to move him.
1) Knicks using draft capital or young players with value to get out of his contract.
2) Finding another limited player with a bad contract around $19m that expires next year, and hoping change of environments work for both players.

Scenario #1 makes zero sense. Why would the Knicks use draft assets or young playes to get rid of him? The Knicks are headed above the salary cap line anyway for next year so trying to clear his contract for cap space accomplishes nothing.

Scenario #2 is very hard - can only be a few contracts like that in the league/

The role for Fournier now is to sit his butt on the bench, hopefully not complain, and then potentially be a filler in a Knicks consolidation trade next year when he is an expiring contract (since 24/25 is a club option).

Yeah I don't see a Fournier trade this year, he would've gone out in a theoretical Mitchell trade (I assume) but the ship has sailed on that. If they make a star trade next year his salary will be very useful. I sometimes think he should get some run here and there (he was huge for them on Sunday night). He can still shoot, and they don't have a lot of guys who can do that.

 

[Knicks411]

The second round picks are flying! buckle up!!!

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

People always assume the shot still goes in if Durant is behind the line…that’s not necessarily true. It wasn’t exactly a perfect swish to begin with.

Interesting take. Hadn’t considered that

 

[jncuse]

Biggest winner today - Houston Rockets?
Now that Brooklyn is officially off Durant let's see where those picks and swaps come out to.

That being said Brooklyn will probably be able to reload a bit with FA space to minimize the damage.
Heck they may clear cap space, sign one or two FA's, and then use all the draft picks to make a big trade to go at it again.

So potentially:
1. This could be a mess that takes some time to clear.
2. They put it together quickly within a few years through FA and trading picks
3. Screw up 2, and become an even bigger mess.

The NBA.

 

[NYCCuse826]

Brooklyn could have had Bam Adebayo last Summer in a deal that would have sent Simmons to Utah and Donovan Mitchell to Miami

 

[jncuse]

They were doing it the right way with the young guys and Kenny Atkinson. I think they have decent talent evaluators and seem to draft well but the minute they acquired Kyrie it was the beginning of the end. If they stay the course add some vet pieces along the way and keep drafting I would be curious to see how that panned out. Brooklyn tried to run with the big dogs as opposed to the smaller markets, probably should have used a bit more of a hybrid approach, the franchise been like a runaway freight train for a few years now. Disaster. They are now just a bunch of wings and strange draft picks.

Sean Marks / Atkinson did a good job in the post Billy King Disaster era. Without too many great picks they built up a team with decent supporting pieces like Dinwiddie, Levert, Allen, Harris, Claxton, and they now had all their future picks back.

Adding Durant/Irving in free agency was a significant "character" risk, but a worthwhile risk in my view. You had nice supporting pieces above and all your draft capital to sort of fill in the team.

I think 2 things did in the Nets and threw their risk profile out of control:
1) Going for the Big 3 with Harden (more below). Got greedy and it blew up here - and move their risk way up.
2) The Pandemic which was beyond their control. The Pandemic and Vaccine turned a questionably sane player in Kyrie Irving to an insane player. But when you have Kyrie, you have to accept that he will find something to lose his sanity over.

Getting back to #1, I'm not a big fan of the "Big 3" philosophy -- there is only so much ball, so its a 1+1+1=2 type situation, and you have to gut your team to do it. It worked with Miami, but they also had James, Wade and a 3rd player in Bosh who was willing to defer. But I also felt it minimized there ability as a whole to be honest.

Also the "Diva" factor of Durant, Irving, Harden is much more than James, Wade, and Bosh.

I think the Nets would have been better using that core they inherited when they signed Durant/Irving (Dinwiddie/Allen/Levert/Jack and all their picks) and trying to find elite role players or two. Instead of going after a Harden, go after a player like a OG Anunoby -- an elite 3+D player.

The final downfall for the Nets was trading Harden for Simmons. The thing is though at the time, almost everybody thought this was potentially a great fit trade for both teams.

 

[jncuse]

Brooklyn could have had Bam Adebayo last Summer in a deal that would have sent Simmons to Utah and Donovan Mitchell to Miami

That's an absurd comment for an "NBA Writer" to make. Kills all credibility for an "NBA Writer" to source that there was a real framework there.

Ben Simmons had little trade value last summer. You really think Ben Simmons is what Danny Ainge wanted with little additional draft comp The Nets had two picks to trade and no swaps.

Ben Simmons, 28 Nets Pick, 29 Sixers Pick
or
Lauri Markannen, Colin Sexton, Agbaji (14th pick), 3 future picks, 2 swaps.

Come on now you think Ainge was interested in Ben Simmons. Or some source that overvalued Simmons thought it made sense. Or perhaps the Nets threw it at the Jazz and Ainge told them to eat it. But there is no way Ainge was interested in that package.

 

[shandeezy7]

This guy is a Bucks blogger so take it with a grain of salt, but speaking of asinine potential deals:

 

[NYCCuse826]

That's absurd.
Zero chance that was happening. Don't believe everything you read.
Ben Simmons had little trade value last summer.

Ben Simmons did not have that trade value last summer. You really think Ben Simmons is what Danny Ainge wanted? No draft compensation?

Who knows? Picks may have very well gone the other way the same way it did with Westbrook. Flipping Gobert and Mitchell said the Jazz weren't keen on contending next season. They may have very well taken a flyer on him.

 

[jncuse]

Who knows? Picks may have very well gone the other way the same way it did with Westbrook. Flipping Gobert and Mitchell said the Jazz weren't keen on contending next season. They may have very well taken a flyer on him.

What picks. They had no picks to trade - that is the problem.

Jazz got 4 first round picks (including Agbaji), and 2 swaps for Mitchell.
All the Nets had to offer was a 28 Nets pick and a 29 Philly pick.

In no way is that comparable.

The best thing to do is to take whomever wrote there was a real structure for Simmons to Jazz off your reading list -- permanently.

 

[NYCCuse826]

What picks. They had no picks to trade - that is the problem.

Jazz got 4 first round picks (including Agbaji), and 2 swaps for Mitchell.
All the Nets had to offer was a 28 Nets pick and a 29 Philly pick.

In no way is that comparable.

Miami, not Brooklyn.

 

[jncuse]

Miami, not Brooklyn.

Mitchell and Adebayo have similar trade values... arguably Mitchell just a tad higher.

So Brooklyn is going to trade by far the worst value player (Simmons), get a player that has much more value (Adebayo), and then better yet Brooklyn will convince Pat Riley to trade multiple picks to Utah to make it work in the end.

There are potentially 3 idiots in these various trade scenarios - Danny Ainge, Pat Riley, or the Writer "source" who concluded there was a real structure here.

And Danny Ainge and Pat Riley are not idiots.

The Nets may well have thrown Simmons name around in such a structure -- but there are no way the Jazz or Heat had any interest in it when it became clear what the Nets couldn't add on.

 

[jncuse]

The second round picks are flying! buckle up!!!

5 for Crowder
5 for Wiseman
3 to get out of Conley's contract.

 

[Knicks411]

Sean Marks / Atkinson did a good job in the post Billy King Disaster era. Without too many great picks they built up a team with decent supporting pieces like Dinwiddie, Levert, Allen, Harris, Claxton, and they now had all their future picks back.

Adding Durant/Irving in free agency was a significant "character" risk, but a worthwhile risk in my view. You had nice supporting pieces above and all your draft capital to sort of fill in the team.

I think 2 things did in the Nets and threw their risk profile out of control:
1) Going for the Big 3 with Harden (more below). Got greedy and it blew up here - and move their risk way up.
2) The Pandemic which was beyond their control. The Pandemic and Vaccine turned a questionably sane player in Kyrie Irving to an insane player. But when you have Kyrie, you have to accept that he will find something to lose his sanity over.

Getting back to #1, I'm not a big fan of the "Big 3" philosophy -- there is only so much ball, so its a 1+1+1=2 type situation, and you have to gut your team to do it. It worked with Miami, but they also had James, Wade and a 3rd player in Bosh who was willing to defer. But I also felt it minimized there ability as a whole to be honest.

Also the "Diva" factor of Durant, Irving, Harden is much more than James, Wade, and Bosh.

I think the Nets would have been better using that core they inherited when they signed Durant/Irving (Dinwiddie/Allen/Levert/Jack and all their picks) and trying to find elite role players or two. Instead of going after a Harden, go after a player like a OG Anunoby -- an elite 3+D player.

The final downfall for the Nets was trading Harden for Simmons. The thing is though at the time, almost everybody thought this was potentially a great fit trade for both

The Nets thing is just so crazy. It went just about as wrong as it possibly could've.

The big 3 vs big 2 is real interesting. It really seems like no matter what, Kyrie was going to blow the team up, especially after the vaccine thing.

If I am doing the math right, the Nets big 3 played 364 minutes together over 16 games. They had an offensive rating 126, and outscored teams by 15 points per 100. Just, you know. 16 games.