Stuff

[SUFaninNJ]

Drew Allen will start this year. IMO

But the real question is, for what school?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

You've been clear / consistent about your feelings on Marrone--not going to try to change your mind. But I disagree with your top assertion. I think people still continue to underestimate how big of a reclamation project this program rebuild was. Marrone made them instantly more competitive, even with depleted depth.

Not in any way suggesting that he was perfect. There were lots of areas that were frustrating as hell--special teams, for example. He also struggled with some game day / sideline stuff--but I understand why, since he'd never been a head coach and needed to figure some things out [he also got better at this over his tenure].

But he got a LOT more out of his players than the previous head coach, and did a solid job on the recruiting trail. Team size / speed / athleticism also improved. I also wonder how much of the "boring" offense early on was related to personnel limitations that started to be less pronounced last year.

I agree with Chip above--he was the right guy at the time to take on the rebuild, and I have to believe that with two bowl appearances / victories in four years, he righted the ship. His departure was ugly, no question about that. But ultimately, I think his "legacy" in the minds of SU fans will depend on how Shaffer does. If Shaffer succeeds, then the hard feelings will ebb and Marrone will be viewed favorably in the minds of most SU fans for turning things around when we were at our low point. If Shaffer fails, then Marrone will be blamed for leaving "too early," when the program was in a precarious position, and not sticking around to finish the job.

The reason why I say that for large parts of his tenure Marrone wasn't a good college coach is because I genuinely believe that what we saw the final season on offense was never his real plan. The talent and lack of numbers hurt our offense, sure. But I think he made choices along NFL lines of thinking moreso than college lines of thinking when it came to offense.

Strengths - improved culture, improved recruiting, improved program perception, had a plan, two winning seasons

Weaknesses - failed to field competent offenses for long stretches, struggled to close on big name recruits, sold a dream to a fanbase that turned out to be a sham/was a tool to the media

Those our kind of big weaknesses, and they relate to scheme, talent and appeal to fans. Those are kind of a big deal in the college game.

Obviously we haven't seen much of Shafer, and this isn't to say I don't have reservations about him, but based on what we know so far it seems like he's more of a college coach based on how he's handling scheme, talent via Cool Kid McDonald and appeal to fans. Ergo, I feel confident that he's a better college head coach than Marrone.

I mean, a lot of why I posted real criticisms regarding Marrone was just to counter Go's Marrone manlove, but in this case I genuinely support what Eyes was saying about the staff.

 

[Orangetradition44]

The way I read OE's post was that it was an upgrade on the defensive side of the ball.

Nice post. This last part really intrigues me. I only say that b/c while I never professed myself to be an unabashed DM fan, I thought he did a nice job and put together a pretty impressive staff.

 

[Orangetradition44]

and the cycle continues.

Uh, okay.

 

[Orangetradition44]

I think he was just baiting and goading you, played you like a fiddle.

I'm behind Shafer all the way, but, how do you know that.

Considering you were unable to actually see, or acknowledge, the progress the program was making until it was obvious to anyone, not surprising.

Two completely different jobs at this point by the way.

 

[44doubledees]

Hearing all this really makes me want Drew Allen, running backs can carry the load, Defense should be above average we just need someone to be able to be serviceable and I think we will be ok.

 

[RF2044]

The reason why I say that for large parts of his tenure Marrone wasn't a good college coach is because I genuinely believe that what we saw the final season on offense was never his real plan. The talent and lack of numbers hurt our offense, sure. But I think he made choices along NFL lines of thinking moreso than college lines of thinking when it came to offense.

Strengths - improved culture, improved recruiting, improved program perception, had a plan, two winning seasons

Weaknesses - failed to field competent offenses for long stretches, struggled to close on big name recruits, sold a dream to a fanbase that turned out to be a sham/was a tool to the media

Those our kind of big weaknesses, and they relate to scheme, talent and appeal to fans. Those are kind of a big deal in the college game.

Obviously we haven't seen much of Shafer, and this isn't to say I don't have reservations about him, but based on what we know so far it seems like he's more of a college coach based on how he's handling scheme, talent via Cool Kid McDonald and appeal to fans. Ergo, I feel confident that he's a better college head coach than Marrone.

I mean, a lot of why I posted real criticisms regarding Marrone was just to counter Go's Marrone manlove, but in this case I genuinely support what Eyes was saying about the staff.

I really like a lot of what I'm seeing from the new staff. They look poised to take recruiting to the next level, which is a great thing.

But at this point, I have no idea whether they can coach or not. Not suggesting they can't, just that it is an unknown [just like it was with Marrone's staff at the same stage]. Shafer is stepping into a new role; ditto McDonald. I'm really comfortable about the defensive guys, but time will tell.

I hope these guys have the chops for game day, because I have a feeling that "Cool Kid McDonald" is really going to energize recruiting! It will be great to finally land an abundance of playmaking talent, and hopefully break through on a blue chipper or two. I don't fault Marrone for not landing those guys -- we came really close, at a time when we weren't an attractive option. Hopefully that perception is changing. Getting to 7-8 wins next year and qualifying for another bowl will help continue that trend.

Hope we find a more than serviceable QB.

 

[RF2044]

Hearing all this really makes me want Drew Allen, running backs can carry the load, Defense should be above average we just need someone to be able to be serviceable and I think we will be ok.

I agree a lot with this. Don't care which one of the QBs it is, but we need someone to emerge. If that happens, we could be good again next year. If not...it's going to be a long year.

 

[GoSU96]

In order:

Because for large parts of his tenure Marrone was not a good college coach.

False.

Irrelevant.

False, I don't think so.

Not a good coach? He took a program that won 10 games in four years and completely turned it around. He won 2 1/2 times as many games in his tenure as the four years prior.

You couldn't be more wrong.

 

[OttoForLife]

It is a really miserable record with QBs, but I wouldn't describe it as "one whiff after another" necessarily. Toward the end of the P era, I think a major issue was numbers. McNabb dominated for four years and put us on a national stage and yet, at the end of the day, the only viable options at QB were a talented guy who supposedly had no idea how to play QB and/or read a playbook (Madei Williams) and a guy who worked hard and had the right attitude but was undersized and not terribly talented (Nunes). That's it -- four years worth of recruiting.

Then, our only viable candidates after that were were the talented but complete trainwreck known as Cecil Howard (I still fall off my chair every time I type his name), Patterson (solid prospect), Joe Fields (rushed onto the field), RJ Anderson (a major, major project in every sense of the word) and Joe Dailey (oops, not him). I would argue they actually did a decent job developing RJ into something more or less useful. Patterson had injuries but I also feel was a bit overrated -- nice touch but not terribly athletic overall.

Then you had GRob who gave us the unique pleasure of watching a team with absolutely no offensive direction for four years. In fact, DM came in and really struggled offensively and yet it was still a significant upgrade from the days of GRob. How good GRob was at developing QBs remains a mystery b/c we still have no idea what he had in mind for an offense. But he did give us the unique pleasure of watching a decent QB prospect disintegrate before our very eyes. Andrew Robinson once threw for 400+ yards twice in one season and managed a pretty solid 13 TDs to 7 INTs with 7.5 yds/attempt (a mark Nassib only cleared as a senior). He wound up as a tight end. Odd.

Then the DM era broke and we saw the Paulus/Nassib season and then Nassib actually develop into a good QB.

But, regardless, I think the numbers were the main issue under P (who had developed some pretty good QBs), then GRob's overall ineptitude offensively became an impossible obstacle for any QB to overcome and finally DM, who probably deserves equal credit for "developing" nassib and for finally letting the kid loose with a creative, aggressive offense that allowed him to actually throw the ball downfield and put up some pretty gaudy numbers.

I don't want to derail the topic of this post completely, but come on! Look at the list of scholarship QBs SU has had since McNabb left. For whatever reason, nearly all of them were disappointments - that includes (to date) everyone Marrone brought in. Even when we had a guy like Nassib win the job, there never seem to be anyone on the depth chart that could really push him (in hindsight, not that he needed it...but you know what I mean).

 

[OrangePA]

In order:

Because for large parts of his tenure Marrone was not a good college coach.

False.

Irrelevant.

Wow.

You are so wrong.

Marrone had a great - great - run at SU - you don't remove or add or otherwise dissect parts of the tenure.

The question is his tenure - period.

He resurrected a dead program. He was great.

 

[GoSU96]

I think he was just baiting and goading you, played you like a fiddle.

Of course he was, doesn't mean I'm not going to respond. Screw him.

It's easy to take shots when you refuse to recognize reality and create expectations based on nothing more than wishful thinking and personal preference.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Oh boy, responses from Go and OPA!

Football season is coming.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[OttoinGrotto]

False, I don't think so.

Not a good coach?

You couldn't be more wrong.

I gave him credit when he deserved credit, and criticized when it was merited.

You guys are getting hung up on the word coach and are ignoring the college qualifier. College coach, guys. College.

Even Marrone said Shafer would be a better college coach. It was a dumb thing to say, but he said it.

Lastly, no, I won't and never will give him much credit for winning more than Robinson. That's too low of a bar. Using comparisons to Robinson insults the things Marrone did accomplish.


Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[OttoinGrotto]

It's easy to adore a coach when you refuse to recognize reality and create expectations based on nothing more than wishful thinking and personal preference.

Fixed.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[RMH44]

Wow.

You are so wrong.

Marrone had a great - great - run at SU - you don't remove or add or otherwise dissect parts of the tenure.

The question is his tenure - period.

He resurrected a dead program. He was great.

I couldn't agree more.

That doesn't mean I have to like the way he left even though I completely understand why he had to make the move.

 

[JrodCuse]

How are people still bashing Nassib? We have a 3 year starter QB leaving who broke basically every major QB statistic in Syracuse history. Granted it is a more pass-happy era, but still, his records are impressive and he is going to be drafted in the 1st/2nd round of this draft. So people saying we haven't had good QB's or haven't developed good QB's in the last 10 years are being blind to the great QB who just left this building with 2 bowl wins in 3 seasons starting.

 

[OrangeCrush22]

I gave him credit when he deserved credit, and criticized when it was merited.

You guys are getting hung up on the word coach and are ignoring the college qualifier. College coach, guys. College.

Even Marrone said Shafer would be a better college coach. It was a dumb thing to say, but he said it.

Lastly, no, I won't and never will give him much credit for winning more than Robinson. That's too low of a bar. Using comparisons to Robinson insults the things Marrone did accomplish.


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IMO, Marrone did a good job righting the ship. He instilled things lost under Robinson's tenure, and capitalized on the talent Robinson brought in. I do think it can be argued that Marrone peaked as a college coach.

 

[chakka3421]

I too am a big HCDM fan! He really was the key to bringing back the program from extinction. Without him, I even wonder if we would be in the ACC right now. We need to give credit where credit is due.

However, I get the sense that HCDM took the program as far as he could take it - here is why. With HCSS, I am impressed with his organizational structure abilities. I never really understood the organizational structure under Marrone - who was the special teams coach, who was the offensive coordinator really? What did Anselmo really do? Who coached QB? etc, etc, etc.

I for one have a renewed sense of excitement that under HCSS our coaching staff will be so much more organized and focused than during the days under HCDM. I certainly hope that having a QB coach - guess what - brings in better QBs in the future!

My question is this - does organizational skill translate into better coaching, recruiting, game planning and decision making that leads to the end result of more wins? I just don't know but it will be fun to watch...

 

[billsin01]

The reason why I say that for large parts of his tenure Marrone wasn't a good college coach is because I genuinely believe that what we saw the final season on offense was never his real plan. The talent and lack of numbers hurt our offense, sure. But I think he made choices along NFL lines of thinking moreso than college lines of thinking when it came to offense.

Strengths - improved culture, improved recruiting, improved program perception, had a plan, two winning seasons

Obviously we haven't seen much of Shafer, and this isn't to say I don't have reservations about him, but based on what we know so far it seems like he's more of a college coach based on how he's handling scheme, talent via Cool Kid McDonald and appeal to fans. Ergo, I feel confident that he's a better college head coach than Marrone.

I think there's common ground here, though I tend to side a little closer to those who will give DM's tenure generally favorable reviews.

The bottom line with DM is that he came in to a program that was in the depths of despair following a long, slow slide that began near the end of the P era. He took this program -- one that has limited fan support and facilities that fall somewhere between grossly inadequate and blah -- and went to two bowl games, averaged 6+ wins per season, recruited well in terms of roster construction if not high-end, high-profile names, stepped up the S&C/player development aspects of the program immeasurably, and generally restored pride to a moribund program.

It's hard to give a guy who accomplished those things -- and I don't think anyone can argue any of those points above -- poor marks as 'college coach', 'football coach' or any other such title. So I would disagree with you on that front.

I'd also disagree with the fact that it matters, at the end of the day, whether DM originally planned on the new offense or not. He was open and flexible enough to accept it on premise and he went with it. For that he deserves credit even if it was all Hackett's doing.

Having said that, there are some here who tend to view DM as something just short of vince lombardi or, in a more likely sense, Chip Kelly. That's not accurate. I think he's a guy that can be replaced effectively and we may -- *may* -- even see shafer build on and, in fact, eclipse what DM accomplished. Would not be shocking.

But I think it's fine to point out that DM had some faults and weaknesses. I would agree that he may be a better fit for the NFL than he was for college. He seemed to be not terribly enthused with all the glad-handing and back-slapping that the college game requires. He seemed to be a solid but not terribly impressive recruiter. He seemed to struggle on game day at times. He seemed to be a little on the conservative side for a college coach.

In summary, the guy did a good job but there would seem to be evidence to suggest we can do even better and maybe the transition to Shafer helps us continue to climb in the right direction. Time will tell.

 

[GoSU96]

I think there's common ground here, though I tend to side a little closer to those who will give DM's tenure generally favorable reviews.

The bottom line with DM is that he came in to a program that was in the depths of despair following a long, slow slide that began near the end of the P era. He took this program -- one that has limited fan support and facilities that fall somewhere between grossly inadequate and blah -- and went to two bowl games, averaged 6+ wins per season, recruited well in terms of roster construction if not high-end, high-profile names, stepped up the S&C/player development aspects of the program immeasurably, and generally restored pride to a moribund program.

It's hard to give a guy who accomplished those things -- and I don't think anyone can argue any of those points above -- poor marks as 'college coach', 'football coach' or any other such title. So I would disagree with you on that front.

I'd also disagree with the fact that it matters, at the end of the day, whether DM originally planned on the new offense or not. He was open and flexible enough to accept it on premise and he went with it. For that he deserves credit even if it was all Hackett's doing.

Having said that, there are some here who tend to view DM as something just short of vince lombardi or, in a more likely sense, Chip Kelly. That's not accurate. I think he's a guy that can be replaced effectively and we may -- *may* -- even see shafer build on and, in fact, eclipse what DM accomplished. Would not be shocking.

But I think it's fine to point out that DM had some faults and weaknesses. I would agree that he may be a better fit for the NFL than he was for college. He seemed to be not terribly enthused with all the glad-handing and back-slapping that the college game requires. He seemed to be a solid but not terribly impressive recruiter. He seemed to struggle on game day at times. He seemed to be a little on the conservative side for a college coach.

In summary, the guy did a good job but there would seem to be evidence to suggest we can do even better and maybe the transition to Shafer helps us continue to climb in the right direction. Time will tell.

His first job, and in a lot of ways only job, was to rebuild the program. Anything else was so secondary to that primary purpose that to worry about it much is laughable.

You are never going to find a post from me ever claiming the guy was Vince Lombardi or Chip Kelly. I don't know if anyone thought that. The closest thing you will find is stuff from CIL talking about how much better Marrone and his staff generally were at scouting and game planning vs most of their opponents.

 

[FAL]

I recall that in the beginning of last season, you didn't like Nassib and you explicitly said SU had no good RBs and you were very critical of Marrone's ability to recruit RBs.

I am still waiting for our friend from Elmira to leave a post with even just a hint of positive spin. And you are right on with your statements--I remember them as well.

 

[Orangeyes]

Back in 2009 I put a similar picture in a post after hearing HCDM talk with passion about reviving the Syracuse program. He truly did raise us from the dead, there is no disputing that and we should all be thankful to him.

HCSS has inherited a far stronger program than the one his predecessor had coming in. HCSS will be given more tools to take it to an even higher level. Shafer has the advantage of having a group of coaches who have succeeded together before and have a great chemistry right off the bat. Throw in the fact that all of them have more experience and you have the formula that can lead to further success and high expectations.

2013 starts a new era in the history of Syracuse University football. The ACC will present new and interesting challenges. I'm confident that we have the right people in place to make the transition seamless.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Wow.

You are so wrong.

Marrone had a great - great - run at SU - you don't remove or add or otherwise dissect parts of the tenure.

The question is his tenure - period.

He resurrected a dead program. He was great.

"Great" is a stretch. Our offensive line was awful for the first couple years he was here, and that was supposed to be his strength. Shafer is the guy whose defense brought us back to respectability the first 2 years. Special teams, which are so important in the college game, and is something we used to excel at, were mostly terrible.

After that, Marrone finally got the offense going, and don't forget, the final year's hurry up offense that was the key to our success was put in as an afterthought, 2 weeks before the season started. He stumbled into his biggest success.

 

[Rocco]

I really like a lot of what I'm seeing from the new staff. They look poised to take recruiting to the next level, which is a great thing.

But at this point, I have no idea whether they can coach or not. Not suggesting they can't, just that it is an unknown [just like it was with Marrone's staff at the same stage]. Shafer is stepping into a new role; ditto McDonald. I'm really comfortable about the defensive guys, but time will tell.

I hope these guys have the chops for game day, because I have a feeling that "Cool Kid McDonald" is really going to energize recruiting! It will be great to finally land an abundance of playmaking talent, and hopefully break through on a blue chipper or two. I don't fault Marrone for not landing those guys -- we came really close, at a time when we weren't an attractive option. Hopefully that perception is changing. Getting to 7-8 wins next year and qualifying for another bowl will help continue that trend.

Hope we find a more than serviceable QB.

Well said.

The important part of this whole post is "energize recruiting". Whether or not HCSS and his staff turn out to be great coaches is yet to be seen. By continuing to improve recruiting with renewed energy, improved facilities and a better conference will help to mask some of the coaching shortfalls, if any. If Mac, Shafer and Lester can continue to build new relationships and break into bigger recruiting rings, we will land higher quality kids. By landing higher quality, faster kids, it makes coaching a little bit easier. You can't teach speed, and it seems like alot of these guys we've landed possess very good wheels. Mac is going out and trying to get fast WR's, and alot of them, because at the end of the day an athletic WR could move into another position (CB, TE, S, LB). Get the athletes in the door first.

Enough with Marrone though (not you specifically). He's moved on and so have we. This post has turned into a pissing match, as usual.