This Tournament Really is an Indictment of our Strategy

[longislandcuse]

Virginia played the greatest game of basketball I've ever seen, and Viginia Tech scored about their season average against us. Our O was the problem against them. We couldn't handle the pressure D.

Oh ok. I guess nothing could be done.

Why is it that only some people on this board defend playing Zone all the time, when nobody else does that and analysts/pundits basically crack jokes about us now?

Tough to say jokes on them when we’re over here celebrating a miracle double digit seed Sweet 16 run as our most recent accomplishment.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

Virginia played the greatest game of basketball I've ever seen, and Viginia Tech scored about their season average against us. Our O was the problem against them. We couldn't handle the pressure D.

We haven’t been able to handle pressure D, extended out past the key, for the past decade. I remember Butler beating us with that style.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

Last year with a healthy Frank Howard Syracuse had one of the best defenses of all time. This year with a gimpy Frank Howard Syracuse only allowed 32% from 3. Exactly what part of that is a stretch?

The problem is that we can’t look at this in isolation. When a team can’t score, but the opponent can, either you figure out how to score or you change defenses to stop your opponent from scoring or you lose...We have a binary choice...we either out score our opponent or we lose. There is no thought given to stopping them from scoring if the zone is ineffective...and it was damn ineffective Thursday...

 

[Orangeman]

Yes you are right, the Syracuse defense was not great against Baylor. But that's not because the zone is obsolete as the OP is suggesting. Its because Syracuse was playing a Freshman and Tyus Battle coming off an injury (he looked winded to me a lot of the game, and played bad D). That is my point here. Its silly to say that kids are just too good at shooting to zone now when just last year nobody could hit a 3 against us. Trends change over time, but they don't change that fast, and no matter how things change you can always adjust a zone to get a hand in shooters face.

Noone is saying a singular defense is obselete...coaching and being able to only play ONE defense is definitely obsolete

 

[General20]

The problem is that we can’t look at this in isolation. When a team can’t score, but the opponent can, either you figure out how to score or you change defenses to stop your opponent from scoring or you lose...We have a binary choice...we either out score our opponent or we lose. There is no thought given to stopping them from scoring if the zone is ineffective...and it was damn ineffective Thursday...

It sounds like you think there is some strategic move Syracuse can make that will allow them to win every game. That's just not true. Syracuse played two different defenses against Baylor. The zone was the better of the two defenses. On that night Baylor was just the better team. Its silly to take that and then come to the conclusion that zone D is obsolete.

 

[General20]

Noone is saying a singular defense is obselete...coaching and being able to only play ONE defense is definitely obsolete

First of all, Syracuse played 2 defenses in that game.

Second of all here is your quote which I am disputing ... EVERY team can shoot threes for a stretch. The 2-3 zone is probably the exact wrong defense to play against this next generation of players.

 

[Orangeman]

It sounds like you think there is some strategic move Syracuse can make that will allow them to win every game. That's just not true. Syracuse played two different defenses against Baylor. The zone was the better of the two defenses. On that night Baylor was just the better team. Its silly to take that and then come to the conclusion that zone D is obsolete.

No, they played ONE half-court defense the entire game.

Look, I like the 2-3 zone as an option, especially when paired with a 2-2-1 three-quarter court press...but it's lazy coaching to think you can't prepare your team to do anything else over a season. Embarrassing actually.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

It sounds like you think there is some strategic move Syracuse can make that will allow them to win every game. That's just not true. Syracuse played two different defenses against Baylor. The zone was the better of the two defenses. On that night Baylor was just the better team. Its silly to take that and then come to the conclusion that zone D is obsolete.

We played zone for 37 minutes. And our opponent hit 16 threes...I have no illusion that we are going to lose games. But what you’re alluding to is, if a team gets hot, then since we only play zone we will have to accept a loss.

On the other hand, when we got hot Baylor switched to man and shut us down.

All some of us are saying is that, in today’s game you need a alternate. And as you mentioned above, without Frank and with a compromised Tyus, the zone was faulty from the get go. If we have to rely on a specific set of kids to be successful, then anything that upsets the apple cart is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Orangeman]

First of all, Syracuse played 2 defenses in that game.

Second of all here is your quote which I am disputing ... EVERY team can shoot threes for a stretch. The 2-3 zone is probably the exact wrong defense to play against this next generation of players.

Maybe you don't understand the nuances of the game. Yes, against a team with 3+ shooters, the 2-3 zone can be over-loaded on a given possession such that you have, say, our wing defender guarding noone while they have an option shooter on the other side given the over-load. You must not have watched Buzz do this to us at Marquette and now Va Tech, with a good deal of success.

The 2-3 zone has a place as a Defense, it CANNOT and should not be your entire reportoire...

 

[Lucid]

If we had last year's defense combined with a halfway decent offense, would we even be having this conversation?

 

[General20]

We played zone for 37 minutes. And our opponent hit 16 threes...I have no illusion that we are going to lose games. But what you’re alluding to is, if a team gets hot, then since we only play zone we will have to accept a loss.

On the other hand, when we got hot Baylor switched to man and shut us down.

All some of us are saying is that, in today’s game you need a alternate. And as you mentioned above, without Frank and with a compromised Tyus, the zone was faulty from the get go. If we have to rely on a specific set of kids to be successful, then anything that upsets the apple cart is a recipe for disaster.

Actually what was said is that a zone can't be played against this generation of players, and now that I called people out on it they are walking their argument back to say the zone is fine but you have to play two defenses well.

Adjustments are incredibly important in basketball. What is not being understood here is that adjustments can happen within a zone or within a man D, you don't have to change from one to the other. Boeheim is recognized among other coaches as being one of the best in game adjusters in basketball. But when you have a freshman guard of limited athletic ability, and Tyus Battle working back from an injury and nobody else because Carey had a turnover and let up a wide open 3 in one minute of play, it makes adjusting hard to do.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

If we had last year's defense combined with a halfway decent offense, would we even be having this conversation?

But we had neither, so the conversation is warranted.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

Actually what was said is that a zone can't be played against this generation of players, and now that I called people out on it they are walking their argument back to say the zone is fine but you have to play two defenses well.

Adjustments are incredibly important in basketball. What is not being understood here is that adjustments can happen within a zone or within a man D, you don't have to change from one to the other. Boeheim is recognized among other coaches as being one of the best in game adjusters in basketball. But when you have a freshman guard of limited athletic ability, and Tyus Battle working back from an injury and nobody else because Carey had a turnover and let up a wide open 3 in one minute of play, it makes adjusting hard to do.

That’s exactly my point. The zone requires precision execution to be effective. We had little precision all year. Maybe JB should consider walking back his post LeMoyne edict and at least try to play m2m. Hell, these players were in grade school when that happened. And they grow up playing m2m. I must be missing something because all I keep seeing are teams scorching us and us having no answer defensively.

 

[orangehomer]

these other teams, if they have even a semi-open look at a three regardless of shotclock they are shooting. our team is dribbling around for 25 seconds and then shooting a long 2.

 

[Lucid]

But we had neither, so the conversation is warranted.

Not really, because the bulk of this thread has been about how the zone is outdated and needs to be scrapped. Last year's zone, combined with a even a semi-effective offense, would be formidable.

 

[longislandcuse]

If we had last year's defense combined with a halfway decent offense, would we even be having this conversation?

Have to be able to recruit players that can play elite defense and have offensive skill at the same time.

We don’t seem to get those players anymore.

Because they don’t seem to want to play zone 24/7.

A real chicken/egg connundrum that obviously has no solution...

 

[General20]

Maybe you don't understand the nuances of the game. Yes, against a team with 3+ shooters, the 2-3 zone can be over-loaded on a given possession such that you have, say, our wing defender guarding noone while they have an option shooter on the other side given the over-load. You must not have watched Buzz do this to us at Marquette and now Va Tech, with a good deal of success.

The 2-3 zone has a place as a Defense, it CANNOT and should not be your entire reportoire...

I understand the nuances of basketball enough to understand that players can move an rotate to compensate for an over-load. I also understand enough nuances to know that Boeheim has a winning record against Buzz and won more tournament games just last year than Buzz ever has.

 

[General20]

That’s exactly my point. The zone requires precision execution to be effective. We had little precision all year. Maybe JB should consider walking back his post LeMoyne edict and at least try to play m2m. Hell, these players were in grade school when that happened. And they grow up playing m2m. I must be missing something because all I keep seeing are teams scorching us and us having no answer defensively.

If our guys spend all their time practicing zone and can't execute, what makes you think they would execute better if they put only half the time into practicing two things?

 

[CardiacCuse]

I agree with you that the game has changed and there are way more 3s taken from way further behind the line than we saw a generation ago. I'm very much looking forward to having a guy on our team next year (JG3) who bombs away and stretches the opponents' D. Pairing him with Buddy might be awesome.

But having said that, I believe your contention that the zone was great up until 2010, but is not so great at defending today's game to be inaccurate. Here are SU's AdjD rankings from 2010-11 through 2018-19:
2010-11: 17th
2011-12: 16th
2012-13: 6th
2013-14: 13th
2014-15: 20th
2015-16: 18th
2016-17: 119th
2017-18: 5th
2018-19: 30th

The Zone has been and continues to be very effective - year after year. There has been no real measurable downturn since 2010.

these stats are meaningless when you play 1 team that decimates you.

no one cares or should care about season-long stat rankings - it is the big games that count - and if you are praying hoping that GOOD teams are going to miss a bunch of 3s you're going to be shaking the baylor's of the worlds hands and thinking about vacation on the reg.

PS Baylor sux

 

[Orangeman]

I understand the nuances of basketball enough to understand that players can move an rotate to compensate for an over-load. I also understand enough nuances to know that Boeheim has a winning record against Buzz and won more tournament games just last year than Buzz ever has.

See, no, they actually cannot in a 2-3 zone. A 3-2 zone then possibly vs a shooting team.

And Buzz has never had the talent at his disposal that Boeheim has had, so that argument is nonsense.

Every Defense, every set of players, has strengths and weaknesses. To only have one, and recruit to that ne Defense, is a marginal waste of 25,000 fans showing up to every game.

 

[longislandcuse]

If our guys spend all their time practicing zone and can't execute, what makes you think they would execute better if they put only half the time into practicing two things?

Nope. Not going to accept this. If that’s the case, we need to stop recruiting morons, and I don’t think our players are actual morons. Maybe low basketball IQ at times, but that’s suggesting that they are legit stupid considering everyone else that plays man manages to be able to throw zone out there if necessary.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

If our guys spend all their time practicing zone and can't execute, what makes you think they would execute better if they put only half the time into practicing two things?

You’re rationalizing. Your point being that the zone isn’t the problem, the offense is. Okay, the offense was a mess. But so was the zone. These kids are supposedly elite basketball players. They can play m2m. The only thing stopping them is a coach who drew a line in the sand 6 years ago.

 

[MikeSU02]

If our guys spend all their time practicing zone and can't execute, what makes you think they would execute better if they put only half the time into practicing two things?

I don’t necessarily agree with your takes in this thread, but I understand your arguments.

But your above statement I don’t agree with. Plenty of teams can crack the code on being able to have multiple defenses. If we can’t do that, it’s an indictment on our coaches.

Btw, I can’t imagine us not playing 97% zone and some press while JB is still here. I don’t think he’s changing no matter what.

 

[Orangeman]

If our guys spend all their time practicing zone and can't execute, what makes you think they would execute better if they put only half the time into practicing two things?

absurd

 

[General20]

You’re rationalizing. Your point being that the zone isn’t the problem, the offense is. Okay, the offense was a mess. But so was the zone. These kids are supposedly elite basketball players. They can play m2m. The only thing stopping them is a coach who drew a line in the sand 6 years ago.

No that's not the point at all. My point is that our players played badly. Zone in and of itself is neither good nor bad. You can play a zone that stops people from hitting 3's (we do it a lot). You can play a bad zone (which we did last night). The only thing I am opposing is the idea that the zone is obsolete and you have to adjust it to a man to man D instead of adjusting how you play the zone.