What Jim Phillips has done to unify ACC football

[HRE Otto IV]

Louisville's most played rival in both revenue sports is Cincy. If we were to go to 15 (which is possible if you do not play divisions), Cincy would be the choice.

I wouldn't mind going to 15 but then you have the last week of the season issue. One team would be left without a game to play.

With 15 teams you can't go 2+6/6. It would be too much to go 5+3/3/3. So the best would be 4+ rotation.

 

[Alsacs]

Clemson's most played ACC rival is Wake. You don't fix UNC-Wake not playing, nor NC State-Duke. UVA-Louisville would not stay IMO. Pitt-BC hasn't been played all that much. Not worth keeping vs having Pitt-Louisville.

With only 3, I think it should be:

Clemson- GA Tech, NC State, Wake
UNC- UVA, Duke, NC State
Duke- UNC, GA Tech, Wake
NC State- UNC, Clemson, Wake
Wake- NC State, Clemson, Duke
GA Tech- Clemson, Duke, FSU
FSU- Miami, GA Tech, Louisville
Miami- FSU, VA Tech, BC
VA Tech- Miami, UVA, BC
UVA- UNC, VA Tech, Pitt
SU- BC, Pitt, Louisville
BC- SU, Miami, VA Tech
Louisville- FSU, Pitt, SU
Pitt- SU, UVA, Louisville

Wake and UNC don’t play every year now.

UNC would be fine with Wake 2 in every 4 years over 1 every 6 years.

Clemson would want FSU, Ga. Tech and then the Textile Bowl.

 

[sutomcat]

Clemson's most played ACC rival is Wake. You don't fix UNC-Wake not playing, nor NC State-Duke. UVA-Louisville would not stay IMO. Pitt-BC hasn't been played all that much. Not worth keeping vs having Pitt-Louisville.

With only 3, I think it should be:

Clemson- GA Tech, NC State, Wake
UNC- UVA, Duke, NC State
Duke- UNC, GA Tech, Wake
NC State- UNC, Clemson, Wake
Wake- NC State, Clemson, Duke
GA Tech- Clemson, Duke, FSU
FSU- Miami, GA Tech, Louisville
Miami- FSU, VA Tech, BC, SU
VA Tech- Miami, UVA, BC, Louisville
UVA- UNC, VA Tech, Pitt
SU- BC, Pitt, Louisville, Miami
BC- SU, Miami, VA Tech
Louisville- FSU, Pitt, SU, VA Tech
Pitt- SU, UVA, Louisville

Updated your setup to make it better.

VT has no rivalry with UM. Makes no sense. They should be paired with UL. It is a rare drivable game for their travel crazy fans. These are two isolated schools that are relatively close together and they have been rivals for many years, going back to the Metro conference and probably before that.

Syracuse and Louisville will never be rivals. They have nothing in common and are the worst match of schools in the entire conference.

SU and UM do have a rivalry. Miami is such a geographic outlier even FSU is a tough drive but there are lots of direct flights between Miami and Syracuse and this gives the Canes another regular game in the Northeast, where a significant number of their student and alums are based. And it gives Syracuse more access to Florida, which is needed for a school located in an area with little local talent.

 

[Alsacs]

Updated your setup to make it better.

VT has no rivalry with UM. Makes no sense. They should be paired with UL. It is a rare drivable game for their travel crazy fans. These are two isolated schools that are relatively close together and they have been rivals for many years, going back to the Metro conference and probably before that.

Syracuse and Louisville will never be rivals. They have nothing in common and are the worst match of schools in the entire conference.

SU and UM do have a rivalry. Miami is such a geographic outlier even FSU is a tough drive but there are lots of direct flights between Miami and Syracuse and this gives the Canes another regular game in the Northeast, where a significant number of their student and alums are based. And it gives Syracuse more access to Florida, which is needed for a school located in an area with little local talent.

Virginia Tech and Miami like playing each other.
They have played every single season since both joined the Big East.
If we were good SU-Miami could possibly happen.

Virginia Tech-Miami gets TV attention.
That game won’t be cut if the 3/5+5 happens.

Syracuse football isn’t going to get any favors.
Its why Louisville would likely be our 3rd team.
When i do these lists i think of history, TV appeal and potential.

TV is why Florida State-Clemson won’t stop being annual. That is the ACC’s closest SEC matchup and those teams like playing annually.

Not many fans would realize Duke-Georgia Tech is a football rivalry and those schools would want to play every year in a 3-5+5.

Our 3rd team is likely Louisville or Wake.

 

[sutomcat]

Virginia Tech and Miami like playing each other.
They have played every single season since both joined the Big East.
If we were good SU-Miami could possibly happen.

Virginia Tech-Miami gets TV attention.
That game won’t be cut if the 3/5+5 happens.

Syracuse football isn’t going to get any favors.
Its why Louisville would likely be our 3rd team.
When i do these lists i think of history, TV appeal and potential.

TV is why Florida State-Clemson won’t stop being annual. That is the ACC’s closest SEC matchup and those teams like playing annually.

Not many fans would realize Duke-Georgia Tech is a football rivalry and those schools would want to play every year in a 3-5+5.

Our 3rd team is likely Louisville or Wake.

Disagree about VT-Miami. Miami does not want to play in the middle of nowhere every other year. It is not an important game and TV does not value it.

If given a choice, I bet VT would prefer to play UL to UM. UL is an historical rival, and just as important for their fanbase, it is a drivable game. For VT fans, drivable away games are a really big deal. If their rivals are Pitt, UVa and UL, they get their top concern addressed beautifully. It makes a ton of sense for them,

If given a choice, I bet Miami would prefer to play Syracuse to VT. Their student body and their alums are based in the Northeast. They want and need exposure there. If BC and Syracuse are 2 of their rivals, they are assured an away game in the Northeast every season. And Syracuse desperately needs to play games in Florida. Particularly South Florida, arguably their most important recruiting area. There are cheap direct flights between the cities. They have had a number of memorable games and have established a rivalry. It works well for both sides.

If given a choice, I bet UL would prefer to play VT, a rival they have a long history with, and someone who might help them fill their stadium, to Syracuse.

If given a choice, I am sure Syracuse would FAR prefer to play Miami than Louisville. Miami is at the top of the list of teams Syracuse wants to play. Louisville is without question the one ACC school Syracuse does NOT want to be assigned as a rival.

I think the ACC is going to do things with more thought and intelligence than you are using. I would hope they are going to get input from the schools and make the best possible decisions. Setting Syracuse up with Louisville is an awful idea because it works for no one. That is why it can’t happen.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Wake and UNC don’t play every year now.

UNC would be fine with Wake 2 in every 4 years over 1 every 6 years.

Clemson would want FSU, Ga. Tech and then the Textile Bowl.

My point is why chose if you don't have to? There isn't a rule that you have to go with 3+5/5 instead of the 4+ model. It is silly to not have teams play yearly that have an 80+ game history. The 4+ model gives you the best of both worlds. Just because 3+5/5 is better than today doesn't mean it should be used.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Updated your setup to make it better.

VT has no rivalry with UM. Makes no sense. They should be paired with UL. It is a rare drivable game for their travel crazy fans. These are two isolated schools that are relatively close together and they have been rivals for many years, going back to the Metro conference and probably before that.

Syracuse and Louisville will never be rivals. They have nothing in common and are the worst match of schools in the entire conference.

SU and UM do have a rivalry. Miami is such a geographic outlier even FSU is a tough drive but there are lots of direct flights between Miami and Syracuse and this gives the Canes another regular game in the Northeast, where a significant number of their student and alums are based. And it gives Syracuse more access to Florida, which is needed for a school located in an area with little local talent.

None of those are set in stone. I was going mainly on history.

VA Tech used to want Miami. If they do not care anymore then sure give them Louisville. But SU-Miami doesn't make sense either. Move UVA to SU and Miami to Pitt.

Or keep VA Tech-Miami and move BC to Pitt, Louisville to VA Tech, and UVA to SU.

There is no rivalry between SU and Louisville. The issue is Louisville has no rivalries in the ACC and needs 3 teams. Someone will get stuck with them and that likely will be us given that Louisville has played SU more than any other ACC team. I don't like it and hope it doesn't happen.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Disagree about VT-Miami. Miami does not want to play in the middle of nowhere every other year. It is not an important game and TV does not value it.

If given a choice, I bet VT would prefer to play UL to UM. UL is an historical rival, and just as important for their fanbase, it is a drivable game. For VT fans, drivable away games are a really big deal. If their rivals are Pitt, UVa and UL, they get their top concern addressed beautifully. It makes a ton of sense for them,

If given a choice, I bet Miami would prefer to play Syracuse to VT. Their student body and their alums are based in the Northeast. They want and need exposure there. If BC and Syracuse are 2 of their rivals, they are assured an away game in the Northeast every season. And Syracuse desperately needs to play games in Florida. Particularly South Florida, arguably their most important recruiting area. There are cheap direct flights between the cities. They have had a number of memorable games and have established a rivalry. It works well for both sides.

If given a choice, I bet UL would prefer to play VT, a rival they have a long history with, and someone who might help them fill their stadium, to Syracuse.

If given a choice, I am sure Syracuse would FAR prefer to play Miami than Louisville. Miami is at the top of the list of teams Syracuse wants to play. Louisville is without question the one ACC school Syracuse does NOT want to be assigned as a rival.

I think the ACC is going to do things with more thought and intelligence than you are using. I would hope they are going to get input from the schools and make the best possible decisions. Setting Syracuse up with Louisville is an awful idea because it works for no one. That is why it can’t happen.

I hope you are right but Louisville has played VA Tech 8x in their entire history. They have played SU, FSU, Pitt, BC, Miami, NC State, UVA, and Wake more. Plus UNC and Clemson the same amount of times.

Geographically it makes a lot of sense. But historically they are tied for 9th most played ACC game for Louisville. Only Duke and GA Tech have been played less.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

To make an easier comparison over 18 years you would see:

Current model
7 teams played 18x
Notre Dame played 6x
6 teams played 3x
It is a joke that we play ND twice as many times as the teams in the Coastal

3+5/5 model
3 teams played 18x
10 teams played 9x
ND played 6x

4+ model
4 teams played 18x
9 teams played 8x
ND played 6x

With the 4+ model vs the 3+5/5 model, you lose one game over 18 seasons vs 9 of the schools, and it is way better than current model. What do you gain vs the 3+5/5 model? You gain 9 more games vs your 4th biggest rival. That is insignificant for SU but for many of the old school ACC teams it makes a difference.

For example,

Clemson can keep FSU, GA Tech, NC State, Wake. With the 3+5/5 model they need to either sacrifice the big game vs FSU or the most played opponent in Wake. With the 4+ model there is nothing to sacrifice. Why pigeon hole the ACC into the 3+5/5 model when it still leaves issues?

 

[supp]

Updated your setup to make it better.

VT has no rivalry with UM. Makes no sense. They should be paired with UL. It is a rare drivable game for their travel crazy fans. These are two isolated schools that are relatively close together and they have been rivals for many years, going back to the Metro conference and probably before that.

Syracuse and Louisville will never be rivals. They have nothing in common and are the worst match of schools in the entire conference.

SU and UM do have a rivalry. Miami is such a geographic outlier even FSU is a tough drive but there are lots of direct flights between Miami and Syracuse and this gives the Canes another regular game in the Northeast, where a significant number of their student and alums are based. And it gives Syracuse more access to Florida, which is needed for a school located in an area with little local talent.

You're leaving out the fact that Miami-FSU is a much bigger rivalry than Syracuse-Miami.

 

[sufandu]

I haven't read the wnole thread so maybe someone addressed this but, can we just ditch the divisions? The article said something about 12 team leagues being required to have divisions to participate in the playoff. Doesn't that rule have to be changed before the ACC can change anything?

 

[CousCuse]

How is any of this going to get the conference more money to remain competitive with the SEC and the B1G? Then the gratuitous swipe at Swarbrick. Seems like misdirection from Philips.

 

[longtimefan]

Just because it is better than what we have now doesn't mean it is the best solution. That is my point.

9 game ACC season will not work, because of the ND arrangement. Clemson, FSU, and maybe others require 7 home games. They also are locked in to their SEC rivalry game. That would be 11 slots filled the years they play ND. There will be some years when the schedule breaks 6 home/6 away.

 

[Alsacs]

How is any of this going to get the conference more money to remain competitive with the SEC and the B1G? Then the gratuitous swipe at Swarbrick. Seems like misdirection from Philips.

Right on brand for you.
The ACC can’t make more money without the teams in the conference doing better and the TV contract gets to the point of going on the open market.
Which is nothing Philips can control thanks to Swofford.

He was calling Swarbrick out for doing what ND does. Look out for themselves.
Expansion to 12 helps ND and hurts the ACC.

Expansion of the CFB shouldn’t happen till ESPN’s monopoly expires.
Phillps is doing a good job.

 

[CousCuse]

Right on brand for you.
The ACC can’t make more money without the teams in the conference doing better and the TV contract gets to the point of going on the open market.
Which is nothing Philips can control thanks to Swofford.

He was calling Swarbrick out for doing what ND does. Look out for themselves.
Expansion to 12 helps ND and hurts the ACC.

Expansion of the CFB shouldn’t happen till ESPN’s monopoly expires.
Phillps is doing a good job.

If the ACC is doing this against ESPN's wishes, they will exact a price for that. If this contract with ESPN is forcing the ACC down a road to non competitiveness, then litigate. Notre Dame is not going to join the ACC and it's going to end up destroying the conference.

 

[Chip]

Disagree about VT-Miami. Miami does not want to play in the middle of nowhere every other year. It is not an important game and TV does not value it.

If given a choice, I bet VT would prefer to play UL to UM. UL is an historical rival, and just as important for their fanbase, it is a drivable game. For VT fans, drivable away games are a really big deal. If their rivals are Pitt, UVa and UL, they get their top concern addressed beautifully. It makes a ton of sense for them,

If given a choice, I bet Miami would prefer to play Syracuse to VT. Their student body and their alums are based in the Northeast. They want and need exposure there. If BC and Syracuse are 2 of their rivals, they are assured an away game in the Northeast every season. And Syracuse desperately needs to play games in Florida. Particularly South Florida, arguably their most important recruiting area. There are cheap direct flights between the cities. They have had a number of memorable games and have established a rivalry. It works well for both sides.

If given a choice, I bet UL would prefer to play VT, a rival they have a long history with, and someone who might help them fill their stadium, to Syracuse.

If given a choice, I am sure Syracuse would FAR prefer to play Miami than Louisville. Miami is at the top of the list of teams Syracuse wants to play. Louisville is without question the one ACC school Syracuse does NOT want to be assigned as a rival.

I think the ACC is going to do things with more thought and intelligence than you are using. I would hope they are going to get input from the schools and make the best possible decisions. Setting Syracuse up with Louisville is an awful idea because it works for no one. That is why it can’t happen.

There are 4 schools that are about half the drive from Blacksburg to Louisville that VT would rather be associated with. They’re all in North Carolina.

I bet any 4 team pod discussion starts with UNC, UVA, Duke, VT. Keeping the first 2 together brings along the next 2.

I’d be thrilled to not be in a group with Louisville, but short of expansion, I don’t see how we avoid it. Stupid Maryland. Syracuse, BC, Pitt, Maryland would be so much better.

 

[sutomcat]

You're leaving out the fact that Miami-FSU is a much bigger rivalry than Syracuse-Miami.

I didn't say it wasn't.

I think Miami should play FSU every season. As HRE has on his proposed list (I agreed with him).

That is my point. VT vs Miami is not a rivalry. It never has been. If the cost to make Syracuse and Miami rivals was to replace FSU with SU as a UM rival, it wouldn't be worth it and I wouldn't advocate for it.

HRE did a very good job with his proposal.

I think the small change I want helps everyone involved.

I am hoping the ACC ADs are having these kinds of discussions. If we end up with a 3-5-5, it will be interesting to see how the schools are paired.

Please no UL for us. Anyone but them. Nothing personal with Louisville. It is a fine city. UL has a really strong athletic program and I have respect for their fans, their facilities, etc.

We just have nothing in common with them. Us playing them every year helps no one. Them playing us every year helps no one.

I hope the ACC ADs agree.

 

[David321]

Under a 3-5-5 model, wouldn’t that mean that our alliance game would have to be one of our OOC games? Do we have to play an alliance game every season? Sorry just trying to get up to speed.

 

[TheCusian]

Under a 3-5-5 model, wouldn’t that mean that our alliance game would have to be one of our OOC games? Do we have to play an alliance game every season? Sorry just trying to get up to speed.

It would be like the ACC v B1G thing in basketball. An OOC dictated by TV probably. We’d get the Northwestern/Purdue/Oregon St treatment alongside more Rutgers, probably.

 

[Alsacs]

I didn't say it wasn't.

I think Miami should play FSU every season. As HRE has on his proposed list (I agreed with him).

That is my point. VT vs Miami is not a rivalry. It never has been. If the cost to make Syracuse and Miami rivals was to replace FSU with SU as a UM rival, it wouldn't be worth it and I wouldn't advocate for it.

HRE did a very good job with his proposal.

I think the small change I want helps everyone involved.

I am hoping the ACC ADs are having these kinds of discussions. If we end up with a 3-5-5, it will be interesting to see how the schools are paired.

Please no UL for us. Anyone but them. Nothing personal with Louisville. It is a fine city. UL has a really strong athletic program and I have respect for their fans, their facilities, etc.

We just have nothing in common with them. Us playing them every year helps no one. Them playing us every year helps no one.

I hope the ACC ADs agree.

Your opinion is something you are entitled too.
However how you say Miami and Virginia Tech don’t have a rivalry is strictly your opinion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami–Virginia_Tech_football_rivalry

I actually research this stuff because it’s something I want to see done.
Virginia Tech-Miami is football rivalry.
They have played every single season since 1992. The game matters in the Miami fanbase.

They hate Florida State the most but Miami’s 3+ 5/5
Would be a 1. Florida State 2. Virginia Tech 3. Open for discussion.

Syracuse had a stretch in the 90s we had a conference rivalry but kids today weren’t even born.

BTW I guarantee you my list is a lot closer to the end product.
Clemson is not giving up Florida State annually for Wake Foresf.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Your opinion is something you are entitled too.
However how you say Miami and Virginia Tech don’t have a rivalry is strictly your opinion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami–Virginia_Tech_football_rivalry

I actually research this stuff because it’s something I want to see done.
Virginia Tech-Miami is football rivalry.
They have played every single season since 1992. The game matters in the Miami fanbase.

They hate Florida State the most but Miami’s 3+ 5/5
Would be a 1. Florida State 2. Virginia Tech 3. Open for discussion.

Syracuse had a stretch in the 90s we had a conference rivalry but kids today weren’t even born.

BTW I guarantee you my list is a lot closer to the end product.
Clemson is not giving up Florida State annually for Wake Foresf.

You are assuming that the 3+5/5 model will be chosen because it is pretty. The 4+ model is so much better at keeping rivalries. Why should Clemson even have to choose to give up their #1 played ACC team?

 

[Alsacs]

There are 4 schools that are about half the drive from Blacksburg to Louisville that VT would rather be associated with. They’re all in North Carolina.

I bet any 4 team pod discussion starts with UNC, UVA, Duke, VT. Keeping the first 2 together brings along the next 2.

I’d be thrilled to not be in a group with Louisville, but short of expansion, I don’t see how we avoid it. Stupid Maryland. Syracuse, BC, Pitt, Maryland would be so much better.

If the ACC went to 16 and eventually got pods you hit the nail on the head.

UNC, Duke, Virginia would be the foundation of a pod. The 4th wouldn’t have to be VPI as thd conference could protect rivalries with a protected game from a team in another pod.
Like UNC-NC State, UVA-VPI, Duke-Wake.

I have always set the conference could keep divisions and just rotate the teams in each division.

Just create zippers.
Florida State-Miami
Clemson-Georgia Tech
Louisville-Pittsburgh
NC State- North Carolina
Duke-Wake
Syracuse-Boston College
Virginia-Virginia Tech

Just create a foundation of one division
North Carolina
Duke
Virginia
The other division
NC State
Wake
Virginia Tech

Protect zipper games and plug in 4 teams in each division from the zippers.

 

[sutomcat]

Your opinion is something you are entitled too.
However how you say Miami and Virginia Tech don’t have a rivalry is strictly your opinion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami–Virginia_Tech_football_rivalry

I actually research this stuff because it’s something I want to see done.
Virginia Tech-Miami is football rivalry.
They have played every single season since 1992. The game matters in the Miami fanbase.

They hate Florida State the most but Miami’s 3+ 5/5
Would be a 1. Florida State 2. Virginia Tech 3. Open for discussion.

Syracuse had a stretch in the 90s we had a conference rivalry but kids today weren’t even born.

BTW I guarantee you my list is a lot closer to the end product.
Clemson is not giving up Florida State annually for Wake Foresf.

That wiki page doesn't consider any UM vs VT game since 2005 to be notable.

When even the wiki author of this 'rivalry' page can't find anything to say about games played the last 16 years, it says a lot about the 'rivalry'.

IMHO, Miami vs Florida State is a rivalry.

IMHO, Miami vs Virginia Tech is just another game.

 

[Alsacs]

You are assuming that the 3+5/5 model will be chosen because it is pretty. The 4+ model is so much better at keeping rivalries. Why should Clemson even have to choose to give up their #1 played ACC team?

Is your scenario an 8 game or 9 game conference season.

Tbe ACC isn’t going to a 9 game season because FSU/Clemson and the ND series.

The SEC may go to 9 because ESPN gave them 4 billion dollars for 10 years in their new TV deal and they will have 16 teams. Florida is the only school really affected. Georgia will play 9 SEC games and keep Ga.Tech because even their road games at Tech are de facto home games.

If the ACC expands maybe they would add a game but the Big XII took a lot of candidates and ND isn’t joining.

4 annual opponents isn’t clean scheduling like 3+5+5 in an 8 game conference season.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I didn't say it wasn't.

I think Miami should play FSU every season. As HRE has on his proposed list (I agreed with him).

That is my point. VT vs Miami is not a rivalry. It never has been. If the cost to make Syracuse and Miami rivals was to replace FSU with SU as a UM rival, it wouldn't be worth it and I wouldn't advocate for it.

HRE did a very good job with his proposal.

I think the small change I want helps everyone involved.

I am hoping the ACC ADs are having these kinds of discussions. If we end up with a 3-5-5, it will be interesting to see how the schools are paired.

Please no UL for us. Anyone but them. Nothing personal with Louisville. It is a fine city. UL has a really strong athletic program and I have respect for their fans, their facilities, etc.

We just have nothing in common with them. Us playing them every year helps no one. Them playing us every year helps no one.

I hope the ACC ADs agree.

I hate that we play Louisville. Really hope they are off the yearly schedule. Of the teams that make sense for SU...

Yes- BC, Pitt
No- FSU, Miami, Clemson, GA Tech, VA Tech, UNC, NC State, Louisville
Maybe- UVA, Duke, Wake

Duke and Wake have a bunch of other schools that they rather play so we don't fit for them. That leaves UVA by default. UVA has a long history with the original ACC schools but they are all tied up with bigger rivalries. They kind of get stuck with us. With BBall and Lax I think it is a good fit, despite no real history in FB. If it isn't UVA then I think we get stuck with Louisville. Wake is a possibility too if they are forced to give up historical yearly rivalries.