A victim of his own standards

[HRE Otto IV]

I should have said I disagree - obviously it's subjective. For me...

A great regular season is fun but with way less eyeballs than the tournament. The buzz around a deep run is unlike the regular season that gets obscured by NFL and CFB. Losing to Vermont in round one is a lot of eyeballs around a loss. It's taking a good thing (a great season, a high seed!) and turning it into something to be embarrassed by, more publicly. All our recruits get to be asked about how they feel to see their future program go down in flames.

A late, unexpected run gives fans, neutral eyeballs, and recruits a positive to end the year on.

Is Sweet 16 really a "deep run"? For a team seeded 1-6 that answer is no. Those are Top 25 teams so it is an expectation. But it is nice for a Cinderella, so you rather be Cinderella for 1 week than have success over 4 entire months? I rather go into the NCAAT coming off a conference tourney championship (which for me partially makes up for the NCAAs) and a good shot at the Final Four than be in the play in game and make a blah S16 run. Those 2 days in March were a lot of fun but it didn't make up for the entire season.

 

[miamicuse]

A late, unexpected run gives fans, neutral eyeballs, and recruits a positive to end the year on.

I am not quite following the logic here. Are you saying in a nutshell an unexpected win is more enjoyable to the fans? and put the program in a better light to the neutral eyeballs?

So essentially we should stride to be something like Florida Gulf Coast University?

 

[bozophobe]

A semi-final win is nice, but fleeting (48 hours to feel good) in some cases. And that happens away from the Dome.

 

[sufandu]

Isn't being a victim of your own standards pretty common place? Most people that have good jobs need to meet a standard to keep it (initally set by your employer). If you want to advance you better be better than your competition or they'll get the job (establishing your reputation). The higher you climb the ladder the more the pressure builds to keep it up (living up to the reputation you established). The difference with JB, or any other successful coach, is that their job is public.

 

[sufandu]

I should have said I disagree - obviously it's subjective. For me...

A great regular season is fun but with way less eyeballs than the tournament. The buzz around a deep run is unlike the regular season that gets obscured by NFL and CFB. Losing to Vermont in round one is a lot of eyeballs around a loss. It's taking a good thing (a great season, a high seed!) and turning it into something to be embarrassed by, more publicly. All our recruits get to be asked about how they feel to see their future program go down in flames.

A late, unexpected run gives fans, neutral eyeballs, and recruits a positive to end the year on.

No. That doesn't make sense. Being talked about on PTI, sportcenter, having your name in the rankings all year... all make you more visible than a brief run in the tourney. Look at who people talk about to start the next season. It's not the unlikely cinderella that made the final four. It's the team that climbs to the top 10 and stays there all year. And recruits care way more about a team's success throughout the season than a brief unexpected tourney run.

 

[TheCusian]

The idea that the sanctions affecting JB‘s record are valid if the sanctions didn’t occur WHILE HE WAS THE COACH.

You thought they were fair?

I think they camped out because of the Fine stuff and dug some stuff up that was things you’d find at most schools.

 

[PauliePeppas]

You thought they were fair?

I think they camped out because of the Fine stuff and dug some stuff up that was things you’d find at most schools.

Bingo

 

[TheCusian]

1992 was a better season than 2018, 2021.

1992 was a 6 seed won BET and lost to a 3 seed second round.

2018, 2021 were double digit loss seasons we won one more 1 tournament game in those seasons.

I bet if i gave you a random year you couldn’t name 10 of the 16 sweet 16 teams from that tournament.

I bet I could in the 3 months after they happened. We’re not talking ten years later. After the season which would I prefer? A sweet 16 trip vs a 1st round clunker, regardless of the season.

 

[TheCusian]

No. That doesn't make sense. Being talked about on PTI, sportcenter, having your name in the rankings all year... all make you more visible than a brief run in the tourney. Look at who people talk about to start the next season. It's not the unlikely cinderella that made the final four. It's the team that climbs to the top 10 and stays there all year. And recruits care way more about a team's success throughout the season than a brief unexpected tourney run.

For most people CBB regular season isn’t much. That’s partly why the sport has declined in prestige. Eyeballs are not as consistent at CFB or NFL or even NBA

 

[sufandu]

For most people CBB regular season isn’t much. That’s partly why the sport has declined in prestige. Eyeballs are not as consistent at CFB or NFL or even NBA

The people that only watch the tournament forget everything about it as soon as it's over. The people that pay attention, pay attention all season (recruits watch more than the tournament). Auburn has been more visible this year regardless of what happens in the tournament than we were during our last final four run. A good regular season also gets you talked about a lot more when experts are picking their final four favorites.

 

[sufandu]

Being in the Sweet 16 is nice in the moment. But I love the top 25 conference games and waking up excited on Saturday and ready to see what Gameday has to say about us.

And actually being talked about on college gameday and on highlight shows.

 

[TheCusian]

There's no question about it.

The 99-00 team was awesome to follow, and lost in the Sweet 16.

By this metric, the 2018, 2021 teams are the same. It's just not true. Not even close.

The two choices were “mediocre year and a sweet 16” vs “great year, 1st round exit”

 

[TheCusian]

The people that only watch the tournament forget everything about it as soon as it's over. The people that pay attention, pay attention all season (recruits watch more than the tournament). Auburn has been more visible this year regardless of what happens in the tournament than we were during our last final four run. A good regular season also gets you talked about a lot more when experts are picking their final four favorites.

Eh - it’s my preference. Your mileage might vary. And a reminder that it was a round 1 flame out paired with a great season. You’ll get talked about as a great team that choked.

 

[pfister1]

Yes, the extent to which the national audience/media is buzzing over a sweet sixteen team is exaggerated.

Not to mention that buzz lasts all of about a week.

 

[SUFan44]

The two choices were “mediocre year and a sweet 16” vs “great year, 1st round exit”

And I still stand by it. No question.

Problem is, how many times have we been good and lost in the first round?

I would take the loss to Richmond season over the Sweet 16 teams - we were relevant the whole year and a Top 10 team.

I would take the 94-95 season over the Sweet 16 runs the past two years. That team was ranked all year too.

Crazy take, IMO.

 

[the villager]

When I lived in snow country we (sons) watched every hoops game we could find on tv except on nights they had games or trips to the dome.A good cold weather distraction.Now the only hoops I watch is the Orange mens. So less eyeballs on regular season games is true. The NCAAT draws more eyeballs than the entire regular season.

 

[SWC75]

We think of Syracuse as an elite program but we haven't been for several years.

Syracuse Orange Basketball Season Records

All-Time Season Won/Loss record for Syracuse University Basketball Orange along with the team's final AP ranking, and the head coach. Also includes their conference record for the Big East and ACC seasons. The Syracuse Orange were formerly known as the Syracuse Orangemen.

orangehoops.org

We were elite when the Louie and Bouie Show went 100-18. We were elite from 1986-91, when we went 165-43, played for the national title and reached the #1 ranking twice. We were elite when we went to the 1996 Final Four, reached a #2 ranking in 1999-2000, We were elite when we won the national championship in 2003. And we were elite from 2009-14 when we went 177-42 and reached the #1 ranking three times.

The rest of the time we were good by normal standards but not elite. A good post season run doesn't really change that. They are certainly welcome but it's better to be dreaming of national championships for four months than to be amazed for a couple of weeks. Of course, elite teams do both. The problem is, Jim wants us to evaluate our recent teams by normal, not elite standards.

We have now achieved mediocrity and the fear is that we are on the precipice of being truly bad. The hope is that we've bottomed out and will again be elite in the near future. It's likely to take more than a class where the top recruit is rated 96th in the country by 247 to achieve that. That's why recruited Mintz, (#56) and getting Benny to live up to the hype, (#32) is important.

Also, Jim Boeheim didn't "build this program up from nothing". It was nothing when Fred Lewis came here and he took them to 99 points a game and the Elite 8. then it got derailed by off the field problems. Roy Danforth put it back on the tracks and went 127-43 his final six years and to our first Final Four. Jim Boeheim, (plus Jake Crouthamel, Dave Gavitt, the Big East, ESPN and the Dome) then took it to new heights, to which we hope to return.

 

[Dinkyspond]

Feeling we have a legit chance to win any game we play.

yes. we don't have that feeling anymore. very true and good point

 

[kidorange]

Yup, I'd take a solid regular seasons and being competitive in conference tournaments any day. I'd prefer watching the top 25 movement all year and studying NC contenders on selection Sunday instead bubble teams. The tournament is exciting but it's the ultimate crapshoot; it's not a great metric of overall success.

As far as JB setting the bar, I don't it's fair to expect what he gave us for so many years but the program is still capable of similar success. It is fair to expect better than what we're currently getting.

 

[Cuse12]

And even if you go by what others might judge as success - occasional greatness over consistently good - he has failed by almost every metric.

Unless you want to include the Final Four in 2016 where we went on a MIRACLE run the likes I have never seen vs. UVA, a Sweet 16 "run" doesn't make a great year.

I'd rather be ranked all season, a Top 4-5 seed and lose like Vermont in 2005, than be mediocre and make a Sweet 16 run.

Completely agree with the last paragraph. Because losing to the vermonts of the world would become an anomaly if we were ranked often and almost every season heading into the tourney. I hate how ppl hang their hats on our miracle runs. Yes I get it they were fun, I enjoyed them too.

But why can’t we be ranked all year AND go on those runs? Because if we are ranked all year that means we are actually a GOOD team, not just a team who got hot.

 

[Cuse12]

Yup, I'd take a solid regular seasons and being competitive in conference tournaments any day. I'd prefer watching the top 25 movement all year and studying NC contenders on selection Sunday instead bubble teams. The tournament is exciting but it's the ultimate crapshoot; it's not a great metric of overall success.

As far as JB setting the bar, I don't it's fair to expect what he gave us for so many years but the program is still capable of similar success. It is fair to expect better than what we're currently getting.

I have to politely disagree with your last point.

It’s not fair to expect the success he gave us for so many years? What? So we are not supposed to expect to be a top 25 school perennially? I mean we have EVERYTHING to be a top 10 school perennially. When your program is top 5-8 in the country in revenue $$ a year….. you dang sure better be top 25 every year practically, this is a business. And name a business in the real world who would be happy about this return on investment.

 

[miamicuse]

The two choices were “mediocre year and a sweet 16” vs “great year, 1st round exit”

That's a "false" choice because it is not one or the other.

You can certainly argue that a close game with lead changes every 20 seconds is a more exciting game to watch and experience as a fan FOR THAT GAME, and it will be more memorable, and may get more replays on national TV therefore more eyeballs, a good example of that is the 6OT game. Is it better as a fan to experience THAT game then watching us crush an opponent with no doubt on the outcome 3 minutes into the game, like the 81-34 NCAA opener vs Montana? Absolutely. But that's a game by game experience as a fan, going through the ups and downs during the game.

That experience is different from the experience over an entire season.

Why does it have to be bubble + 2 games vs top ranked and first round exit? Are those the only choices? Why can't we be top ranked and make a deeper run into the tournament?

It's the same argument with recruiting. Every time we lose a blue chip recruit we say well I would rather have a top 100 recruit that stays 4 years then a top 10 that doesn't even show up on campus like Brazley. Well that's a false choice too. We could have a 4 year Hakim Warrick, and we could have a one and done Carmelo, and they can be on the same team even.

Syracuse basketball is not clinging on the outside of the bubble every season and collectively holding our breath on selection Sunday.

Syracuse basketball is not wondering whether we will be invited to the NIT.

Syracuse basketball is not looking at the ACCT bracket and hoping to avoid Duke.

Can we still make a dunk?

Having regular season success maximizes one's chance in the post season, better seed = better draw. Is it better to be seeded 2 then seeded 11? 100 out of 100 will choose to be a 2 seed, UNLESS the outcome is already known like the 1991 game vs Richmond, and that makes it a false choice.

 

[Eric15]

The two choices were “mediocre year and a sweet 16” vs “great year, 1st round exit”

I would personally rather have the latter because it suggests a stronger, healthier program that is more likely to be good in the coming years.

 

[MSOrange]

I would personally rather have the latter because it suggests a stronger, healthier program that is more likely to be good in the coming years.

That's exactly how I feel. If you can show you can continue to compete over 30 games each season, you've got a strong program that will eventually break through in the tournament.

 

[kidorange]

I have to politely disagree with your last point.

It’s not fair to expect the success he gave us for so many years? What? So we are not supposed to expect to be a top 25 school perennially? I mean we have EVERYTHING to be a top 10 school perennially. When your program is top 5-8 in the country in revenue $$ a year….. you dang sure better be top 25 every year practically, this is a business. And name a business in the real world who would be happy about this return on investment.

It's hard to ask for Hall of Fame greatness and 35 year stretches with very few subpar seasons. You sign up for that every time. The past handful of seasons has been frustrating, as I previously said. His body of work has taken a hit, but is still very solid. I think your comment takes us back to the original question. It's a good question. Maybe I fare more on the side of yes, I expect more but it's because of what he built. You're right about having everything in place to have a great team but where'd that come from?