Is this our actual ceiling for the season?

[Alsacs]

Yes. That was the Boeheim 9 game suspension season. Other than that stretch, we played pretty good ball. Even the end of the regular season when we were losing...they were tight games against a really tough stretch of the schedule.

I think this years team is a solid tourney type team too, but they’ve faced significant disruptions too that have hurt the development. So have many other teams, but as far as I can tell it’s hit us harder than most so far.

The 2016 team was good.
The fact remains we haven’t played a game as a ranked team after January since 2014.
If 2016 did it would have been one time in 7 seasons.

 

[Sherman20]

Pitt won because we choked. We played the last 10 minutes like a bunch of zombie chuckers. Yes they hurt us inside but we also played like we forgot how to run an offense. It was a total meltdown.

And Quincy’s foul trouble killed us.

 

[Orangezoo]

We got in the tournament GMac’s senior year when we beat Cincinnati.
That was a rubber match play in game.
The GMac run got us a 5 seed.

The 06-07 and 07-08 teams barely missed the tournament and with a 68 team field like now both make it.
The 06-07 team got screwed. We played bad tomato cans that killed our computer numbers. JB fixed that.

07-08 makes the tournament if an under .500 Georgia doesn’t go on an insane run in the SEC tournament and steal a bid.

Those teams also had more talent than our team now.
Covid has screwed us because it has given everyone a free year.
I am sorry but I am a realist not an idealist.

Let's keep the goalposts. We missed the tourney in 16-17 barely. In 16-17 and 18-19 we were ranked to start I believe. We were not ranked to finish that season or the other seasons you mentioned. Those 05-07 teams were not top 25 teams either despite the fun runs. I am being a realist here to you being a cynic. It's cool but you are far more cynic than realist. We aren't what we should but if your point is based on results then my argument holds. Talent is all a hypothetical comparison because the teams can't play one another to truly compare. 2015 was the penalty year. Don't forget we played part of this stretch with the NCAA penalties too.

2016 was a much better team than anything 05-08 and aside from the suspension realist that is a team online with expectations. 17-20 is 3 straight seasons and 5/6 not getting where we want. Paired with a pandemic and the penalties. I think it's very realist to look at next year as the year to break out if it's going to happen. This year is foolish to do so. With a healthy team and no pause there is no question we are 9-0 right now. That would be the best start in a while. Realistically we share some of the same concerns I just don't add so much cynicism on top. Programs are not defined in small stretches. We are very much in a space where we can have a turning point year again. It's not unrealistic given current roster and the fact we may not lose much going into the next two years and have talent like Richmond, Woody, Frank now and Benny incoming. Joe and Buddy have their warts but will be another year older and so forth with extra eligibility.

 

[Brooky03]

Nobody expects top 10.
Syracuse hasn’t played a game as a top 25 team after January of any season since 2014. That is 6 full seasons ago.
If we should just expect to be Providence till JB retires I will accept that. The fanbase needs to accept that.

Everybody knows recruiting hasn’t been good. If you’re talking about recruiting, join the 100% other syracusefan members who would like it to be better.

X’s and O’s hasn’t been the factor keeping Syracuse out of the top 25. If you don’t like the coaching, that’s fine. If you think the coaching is the reason we’re not top 25, I can’t get on board with that.

If you think Kadary is the magic bullet that gets us to the top 25 by playing 10 more minutes per game, I’m not sure I’m on board with that either. Should he play more than 6? Yes, he usually does. Does it matter how many minutes he played if we win the game? No.

 

[OrangeDW]

Let's keep the goalposts. We missed the tourney in 16-17 barely. In 16-17 and 18-19 we were ranked to start I believe. We were not ranked to finish that season or the other seasons you mentioned. Those 05-07 teams were not top 25 teams either despite the fun runs. I am being a realist here to you being a cynic. It's cool but you are far more cynic than realist. We aren't what we should but if your point is based on results then my argument holds. Talent is all a hypothetical comparison because the teams can't play one another to truly compare. 2015 was the penalty year. Don't forget we played part of this stretch with the NCAA penalties too.

2016 was a much better team than anything 05-08 and aside from the suspension realist that is a team online with expectations. 17-20 is 3 straight seasons and 5/6 not getting where we want. Paired with a pandemic and the penalties. I think it's very realist to look at next year as the year to break out if it's going to happen. This year is foolish to do so. With a healthy team and no pause there is no question we are 9-0 right now. That would be the best start in a while. Realistically we share some of the same concerns I just don't add so much cynicism on top. Programs are not defined in small stretches. We are very much in a space where we can have a turning point year again. It's not unrealistic given current roster and the fact we may not lose much going into the next two years and have talent like Richmond, Woody, Frank now and Benny incoming. Joe and Buddy have their warts but will be another year older and so forth with extra eligibility.

Im not so sure we beat Rutgers with Buddy. We had them on the ropes a bit in the second half and a big part of that was Kadary dicing up their overplaying man to man. If Buddy was there, Kadary is probably on the bench most of the game, and Joe and Buddy are eaten alive by their pressure D.

 

[Alsacs]

Let's keep the goalposts. We missed the tourney in 16-17 barely. In 16-17 and 18-19 we were ranked to start I believe. We were not ranked to finish that season or the other seasons you mentioned. Those 05-07 teams were not top 25 teams either despite the fun runs. I am being a realist here to you being a cynic. It's cool but you are far more cynic than realist. We aren't what we should but if your point is based on results then my argument holds. Talent is all a hypothetical comparison because the teams can't play one another to truly compare. 2015 was the penalty year. Don't forget we played part of this stretch with the NCAA penalties too.

2016 was a much better team than anything 05-08 and aside from the suspension realist that is a team online with expectations. 17-20 is 3 straight seasons and 5/6 not getting where we want. Paired with a pandemic and the penalties. I think it's very realist to look at next year as the year to break out if it's going to happen. This year is foolish to do so. With a healthy team and no pause there is no question we are 9-0 right now. That would be the best start in a while. Realistically we share some of the same concerns I just don't add so much cynicism on top. Programs are not defined in small stretches. We are very much in a space where we can have a turning point year again. It's not unrealistic given current roster and the fact we may not lose much going into the next two years and have talent like Richmond, Woody, Frank now and Benny incoming. Joe and Buddy have their warts but will be another year older and so forth with extra eligibility.

16-17 had a 68 team tournament field.
06-07/ 07-08 had a 65 team tournament field.
That is a fact not a goalpost move one iota.

16-17 had 2 wins on the road. That killed us.
16-17 had a play and your in game with Miami in Brooklyn and lost.

All of these statements are facts and not goalpost moves.

Programs are not defined by small amounts of time. Okay what is a small amount of time please.
Tell me the standards and I will make statements that fall within them:

 

[Orangezoo]

Joe should be playing 10-15 mpg unless he’s hot(which he’s been maybe twice this year? Maybe 3 times?

No idea where all the rest of that nonsense came from. Not from me.

Kadary is better than Joe.

It was just a tongue in cheek sarcastic post.

 

[Consigliere]

Can we start a “Boeheim doesn’t play his bench” forum so the rest of us can discuss basketball here and not have everything hijacked by a tired narrative?

 

[Orangezoo]

16-17 had a 68 team tournament field.
06-07/ 07-08 had a 65 team tournament field.
That is a fact not a goalpost move one iota.

16-17 had 2 wins on the road. That killed us.
16-17 had a play and your in game with Miami in Brooklyn and lost.

All of these statements are facts and not goalpost moves.

Programs are not defined by small amounts of time. Okay what is a small amount of time please.
Tell me the standards and I will make statements that fall within them:

You tell me since you are the one stating we are Seton Hall and Providence. All I see is cynicism. I honestly don't follow how you are qualifying the program as having regressed in brand. You say 6 years so I challenge that with 2016 and look at other down periods. The amount of teams in the tourney doesn't make sense to bring up. We made the tourney in 18 and 19 but the point you were getting into was being ranked. Thus we discussed ranking but apparently I am wrong there too?

You say realist but I challenge it as a fellow realist and I am being some idealist? You can read any of my posts I am no idealist. So what is it that quantifiably says we are not SU anymore? Is it 6 yrs of not playing a ranked game after Jan? Is it missing the tourney? All I see is someone who is completely cynical and set in that we are mediocre now and 1976 through 2014 is irrelevant.

You have totally lost me on your reasoning. It feels like you keep shifting and it all comes back to being cynical and defeatist not realist. Just debating and being honest. I am not trying to being an ass here.

 

[Sherman20]

All due respect, but you can’t keep bringing up this point w/ MCW & Dion, w/out bothering to mention who is was playing ahead of them.
Buddy & JG3 are not in the same stratosphere as Triche, Scoop et al, so much so that KR would have to rightfully wait his turn.
It’s totally beside the point. The guys getting 36 mins a game simply shouldn’t be. Now granted its early so we’ll see how things stand by year’s end. It’s JB’s track record vis-a-vis bench development, that I’m worried about.

He should have had at least one 4 minute run between time-outs in the 2nd half, when they were chopping into our lead, and our offense went stale for a while.

JB is obsessed with JG3 for some inexplicable reason. He refuses to reign in Girard’s ridiculous shot selection and plays him too many minutes. He acts like Girard is a lights out shooter (the percentages say otherwise) and the second coming of Trey Young at Oklahoma from a few years ago. Nope.

 

[OrangeDW]

Can we start a “Boeheim doesn’t play his bench” forum so the rest of us can discuss basketball here and not have everything hijacked by a tired narrative?

The title of the thread makes it pretty obvious what this one is about, and naturally that’s going to lead to discussion about players roles.

You could always, just like...go to the other threads. Or start your own.

 

[JustPherU]

Let's keep the goalposts. We missed the tourney in 16-17 barely. In 16-17 and 18-19 we were ranked to start I believe. We were not ranked to finish that season or the other seasons you mentioned. Those 05-07 teams were not top 25 teams either despite the fun runs. I am being a realist here to you being a cynic. It's cool but you are far more cynic than realist. We aren't what we should but if your point is based on results then my argument holds. Talent is all a hypothetical comparison because the teams can't play one another to truly compare. 2015 was the penalty year. Don't forget we played part of this stretch with the NCAA penalties too.

2016 was a much better team than anything 05-08 and aside from the suspension realist that is a team online with expectations. 17-20 is 3 straight seasons and 5/6 not getting where we want. Paired with a pandemic and the penalties. I think it's very realist to look at next year as the year to break out if it's going to happen. This year is foolish to do so. With a healthy team and no pause there is no question we are 9-0 right now. That would be the best start in a while. Realistically we share some of the same concerns I just don't add so much cynicism on top. Programs are not defined in small stretches. We are very much in a space where we can have a turning point year again. It's not unrealistic given current roster and the fact we may not lose much going into the next two years and have talent like Richmond, Woody, Frank now and Benny incoming. Joe and Buddy have their warts but will be another year older and so forth with extra eligibility.

Not sure you can just chalk up the Rutgers game as an automatic W.

 

[Orangezoo]

Not sure you can just chalk up the Rutgers game as an automatic W.

With Sid and Buddy let's go with likely then. 8-1 still is in line with the general point.

 

[Sherman20]

Can we start a “Boeheim doesn’t play his bench” forum so the rest of us can discuss basketball here and not have everything hijacked by a tired narrative?

You might be tired of it, but the narrative is completely accurate and is backed up by data. We’ve consistently utilized the fewest amount of bench minutes among P5 schools and nationally for the past several seasons. That’s a fact.

 

[Alsacs]

Can we start a “Boeheim doesn’t play his bench” forum so the rest of us can discuss basketball here and not have everything hijacked by a tired narrative?

Mr. Hagan, respectfully you don’t have to click on the thread. There are plenty of other ones to discuss what you want. If you create them I promise I won’t participate in anything but the topic at hand if I ever post in them.
But you have to create them so I know that is what they are about. All my best to The Godfather.

 

[Knicks411]

You might be tired of it, but the narrative is completely accurate and is backed up by data. We’ve consistently utilized the fewest amount of bench minutes among P5 schools and nationally for the past several seasons. That’s a fact.

Fwiw, in the last 9 seasons, our best overall ranking in % of bench minutes used is 256th. The other 8 years, we have been 300 or lower.

That doesn't mean anything more than exactly what it means; we dont use the bench a lot. It isn't necessarily a good or a bad thing on its face, but agree, the only reason its a "tired narrative" is because it's been going on for so long

 

[OrangeDW]

Fwiw, in the last 9 seasons, our best overall ranking in % of bench minutes used is 256th. The other 8 years, we have been 300 or lower.

That doesn't mean anything more than exactly what it means; we dont use the bench a lot. It isn't necessarily a good or a bad thing on its face, but agree, the only reason its a "tired narrative" is because it's been going on for so long

Yup. Last year I had no problem with it. We didn’t have any depth. A lot of the games this year I was encouraged by Kadary and Woody getting time and producing.

Last night...just hope it was an aberration, I guess.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Fwiw, in the last 9 seasons, our best overall ranking in % of bench minutes used is 256th. The other 8 years, we have been 300 or lower.

That doesn't mean anything more than exactly what it means; we dont use the bench a lot. It isn't necessarily a good or a bad thing on its face, but agree, the only reason its a "tired narrative" is because it's been going on for so long

Holy shtt, that's awful.

We haven't had such talented players that we haven't needed help from the bench. I mean, just look at the results. I don't think we've won 20 games in the regular season in 6 years now.

 

[Knicks411]

Yup. Last year I had no problem with it. We didn’t have any depth. A lot of the games this year I was encouraged by Kadary and Woody getting time and producing.

Last night...just hope it was an aberration, I guess.

Right. You should play your best players as much as you can. I guess identifying those best players could be an issue...

 

[OrangeinDC]

exactly! i am not impressed whatsoever withg this team!
#1 problem WE NEED A CENTER in there so badly! Gpopod teams will expose that weakness and tear us to shreds. Also i only got to see alo0t of the 2nd half but where the hell was kadary richmond at?!!!!
He is much better at the top of the zone and can get to the hoop. I understand girard had a good shooting night but what the hell, 6 minutes!! thats ridiculous! He belongs on the floor much more than that imo

Still think next year is shaping up to be really good. You never quite know who will be here next year, in college hoops now.

But if we’ve got Kadary, Griffin, Benny, Quincy, and Woody...that’s guys with Syracuse level athleticism and size who can actually score(unlike the Howard-Brissett years)

Throw in Buddy and Joe. If a center emerges to just be decent, we look pretty loaded.

You know what? I would really just love to get back to where we make teams adjust to us and I know it won’t happen overnight. We have players with different skillsets, so our sum will have to be greater than our individual parts or we are going to be a mediocre team. That’s the potential I’ve been excited about for the season. So we may not be able to throw a 230lb center at you, however we have multiple 210 lb. athletic big guys with huge wingspans, that’s 20 fouls at the 5, let’s press and speed things up so they have to sub their man out. I also think this kind of a change up would only help MD or BS. I think we also have interchangeable pieces at every other position (I loved seeing Woody play at the top of the zone) put 6'5 and 6'8 up there for a few minutes a game with KR, not sure if we've done that since the first game.

The young guys don't have to be great at everything, just play ball, play hard and find a way to contribute during their few minutes, it’s not like they just started playing hoops this year. Besides giving the starters a break, it would build their confidence and let them start growing into some potential.

There’s s room for all of the different skill sets on this team to work off each other and make problems for teams in the long run. The current path we’re on, we already saw how that will play out last season. I like the makeup of the team and their potential to be a really good team down the road. I’m not harping on any individual player, but it’s disappointing watching us do the same thing as last season and expect different results this year.

Disclaimer…. This is only my opinion

 

[Alsacs]

Right. You should play your best players as much as you can. I guess identifying those best players could be an issue...

If our best players were Brandon Triche, Michael Carter-Williams, and CJ Fair go ahead and play them a lot.

Our players now aren’t in that class.

 

[pearl31]

Yup. Last year I had no problem with it. We didn’t have any depth. A lot of the games this year I was encouraged by Kadary and Woody getting time and producing.

Last night...just hope it was an aberration, I guess.

DW respect your takes a lot but honestly you shouldn’t be using last night as the basis - hate on him all you want but JG was pretty stellar - 18 and 8, 3/4 from three, 2 TOs - yeah KR should have gotten a couple 2nd half mins, but you can’t ask for much more from your lead guard than what JG did last night.
Now, the Pitt game? Different story. To repeat, though, it’s just so hard to say right now coming off our 3rd pause and the season essentially being upside down

 

[Sherman20]

Right. You should play your best players as much as you can. I guess identifying those best players could be an issue...

Look, I agree with JB’s overarching philosophy that playing your best guys 35-40 mpg (even when tired) is better than playing the 9th or 10th guy 5-10 mpg. Especially when those guys at the end of the bench just aren’t anywhere near as good as your best players. My issue is that JB has consistently said he feels it’s best to have a consistent rotation of 8 players, with a backup guard, backup forward and backup center. But there are many times over the past 5-6 seasons when he defies that and only plays 6, maybe 7 guys in a given game. He goes against his own philosophy. It doesn’t seem like any of our backup centers are ready for regular minutes this season (all are raw), and Sid is still working his way back into game shape. I’m hopeful that once Sid is healthy and back in game shape, we can bring Griffin off the bench (and shift Marek to center), and play Kadary as the guard sub (consistent minutes please...at least 20mpg), and Woody or Braswell at forward, depending on how each is performing. That’s a very solid rotation. We run our starters too hard. But it wasn’t always this way. Even Carmelo and Gmac didn’t play 40mpg during our national title year. We had a perfect bench rotation that year with Edelin, Pace and McNeil. In 2011-12, we had Waiters, CJ, Southy, and Keita all coming off the bench. Rak started but didn’t play big minutes, so basically a regular rotation of 8.

 

[Orangezoo]

Fwiw, in the last 9 seasons, our best overall ranking in % of bench minutes used is 256th. The other 8 years, we have been 300 or lower.

That doesn't mean anything more than exactly what it means; we dont use the bench a lot. It isn't necessarily a good or a bad thing on its face, but agree, the only reason its a "tired narrative" is because it's been going on for so long

Just curious but any other top tier programs around us or below? Not surprising stat but just curious.

 

[Knicks411]

Just curious but any other top tier programs around us or below? Not surprising stat but just curious.

Duke for sure is similar; they were actually 75th last year but in the years prior to that they rank in the 300s.
Virginia is similar, maybe not quite as extreme
Gonzaga has been 250 or higher the last few years. I can't figure an easy way to check a bunch at once, so I'll leave it there.

I do think most of the best teams tend to lean on their bench less than average. Which is why I said I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that we don't play the bench a lot. But it is true