Lebron to the Cavs...and we're off....

[OrangeCrush22]

I don't really understand your point. Jordan clearly WAS a winner. Competition in the East back then was WAY more difficult! So is James. Obviously they are/were different players with James as probably the most versatile player the NBA has seen to date.

Also, saying Jordan sucked from 3 is a big stretch. In four of his best seasons, 92-97 he shot 35%, 50%, 43%, and 37%. In the Playoffs in general he was more consistent from 3. In the beginning of his career and at the end with Washington those numbers were quite lower.

My point is that LeBron is better than Jordan who he is always compared to.

Jordan was 108-138 without Pippen on the Bulls and 1-11 in the playoffs without Pippen.

The NBA, and especially the East, was at its weakest point in the 90s. Toronto Raptros, Charlotte Hornets, Miami Heat, Orlando Magic, and the Minnesota Timberwolves were all added to the league between '88 and '95 thinning the NBA's talent pool.

Jordan took the defending Champion Detroit Pistons to 7 games in the Eastern Conference Finals. Oh yeah and people were allowed to foul hard and hand check in Jordan's days. Jordan would average 40ppg in today's rules with no hard fouls or hand checking.

I would love to see Lebron James survive 1 playoff series against the 1980's Bad Boys Pistons.

Backcourt hand checking was eliminated in '95 and the "Clear Path" rule was also added in '95.

The Pistons were in decline when Jordan finally broke through. Isiah Thomas was three years away from retirement in '91; he only played in 48 games the '91 season. Vinnie Johnson was two years away from retirement and the same for Bill Laimbeer. Of those with significant playing time the Bulls (27), on average, were three years younger than the Pistons (30).

 

[longislandcuse]

Melo back to NY. Thank goodness!

I truly think he made the right move. I'm obviously a biased Knicks fan but I believe "for the duration of his contract" he has a better chance to win in NY than he does in Chicago. Of course money aside, he's choosing eventual cap space and Phil Jackson over Derrick Rose. Those are the two wild cards.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I would love to see Lebron James survive 1 playoff series against the 1980's Bad Boys Pistons.

I refuse to get into a Jordan/Lebron pissing match, but I'm pretty sure Lebron would figure out a way to hack it against the Bad Boys.

 

[Guinness]

Jordan and Lebron is not a fair comparison. Two different players with very different games. The better comparison imo is Lebron and Magic. Both big guys capable of playing 4 positions on the floor. Both more than capable of scoring but with a pass first mentality.

 

[HOFCeluck]

WATCH OUT LEBRON THIS GUYS GONNA GET YA

 

[Alsacs]

WATCH OUT LEBRON THIS GUYS GONNA GET YA

View attachment 17589

Lebron is a special talent one of the greatest of all-time but those Pistons teams took physical to the extreme. Lebron is coddled and whenever he gets fouled hard today complains and hard today isn't anywhere close to the 1980's.
Mahorn, Laimbeer. Salley one of them would have hammered Lebron and kept hammering him. The Pistons played the mental game better than team in recent NBA history.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Lebron gets fouled every time he touches the ball. Frankly I don't blame him for complaining. Coddled. Lol.

And while I agree that the Pistons excelled in psychological warefare (ESP Laimbeer) I'm not buying the idea that LBJ just shrivels up. He would have done the same thing all greats would have done. He'd adapt.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Lebron gets fouled every time he touches the ball. Frankly I don't blame him for complaining. Coddled. Lol.

And while I agree that the Pistons excelled in psychological warefare (ESP Laimbeer) I'm not buying the idea that LBJ just shrivels up. He would have done the same thing all greats would have done. He'd adapt.

This is what people don't get.

At any level of the game, when you are guarding someone who is not only more skilled, but physically superior, it's natural and necessary to foul them. At the y, if you're the biggest guy, you'll get fouled the most.

Scale that up to the NBA. Not sure why people can't understand this.

 

[Alsacs]

Lebron gets fouled every time he touches the ball. Frankly I don't blame him for complaining. Coddled. Lol.

And while I agree that the Pistons excelled in psychological warefare (ESP Laimbeer) I'm not buying the idea that LBJ just shrivels up. He would have done the same thing all greats would have done. He'd adapt.

Yeah because Lebron during this year's Finals really adapted. Instead he spent the post game talking at I did and blaming his teammates or after the damn game 1 without the AC. Boston Garden didn't have an AC the Lakers, Pistons nobody complained but all we heard from Lebron was about how tough that heat was. Lebron is very talented on he court but the 80's ERA teams were better and of course that was before the luxury tax and all that garbage thanks to the owners, but those Pistons teams were what made MJ into the GOAT and they would have physically beaten the crap out of Lebron. Jordan got knocked down every time he drove the ball. Lebron complains when teams today play physical and today's physical is laughable compared to 80's ERA.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Yeah because Lebron during this year's Finals really adapted. Instead he spent the post game talking at I did and blaming his teammates or after the damn game 1 without the AC. Boston Garden didn't have an AC the Lakers, Pistons nobody complained but all we heard from Lebron was about how tough that heat was. Lebron is very talented on he court but the 80's ERA teams were better and of course that was before the luxury tax and all that garbage thanks to the owners, but those Pistons teams were what made MJ into the GOAT and they would have physically beaten the crap out of Lebron. Jordan got knocked down every time he drove the ball. Lebron complains when teams today play physical and today's physical is laughable compared to 80's ERA.

Your venturing dangerously close to #hotsportstake territory with that air conditioning stuff.

 

[Fireball Jr.]

Lebron is a special talent one of the greatest of all-time but those Pistons teams took physical to the extreme. Lebron is coddled and whenever he gets fouled hard today complains and hard today isn't anywhere close to the 1980's.
Mahorn, Laimbeer. Salley one of them would have hammered Lebron and kept hammering him. The Pistons played the mental game better than team in recent NBA history.

Look at Laimbeer's picture: big boy, tough guy, but his body, by today's standards, looks uber soft. Players today are, for the most part, sculpted, strong, better athletes than the days of yore. Not to say or suggest today's players are better, but I have a feeling LeBron would do just fine in any era, regardless of the rules.

 

[Alsacs]

Look at Laimbeer's picture: big boy, tough guy, but his body, by today's standards, looks uber soft. Players today are, for the most part, sculpted, strong, better athletes than the days of yore. Not to say or suggest today's players are better, but I have a feeling LeBron would do just fine in any era, regardless of the rules.

I hated the Pistons but those Bad Boy teams just physically beat the stuff out of Michael Jordan. Jordan's 1980's stats are underrated for how good they were. If the Pistons style were allowed today Lebron would get knocked down atleast 10-20 times a game. Those Pistons teams were dirty. Laimbeer would have been more valuable today because he was a big guy who could shoot and post scoring from big guys is down. I think Laimbeer would have sculpted his body if he played today. Laimbeer was my least favorite player as a young kid, but the dude did well on sheer intelligence playing mind games. Lebron would have done well in any era, but today's NBA is TOTALLY different from the Golden Era of NBA basketball in the 1980's when even Dr. J and Larry Bird had a brawl and were both ejected. Kobe is the closest thing to a throwback to that ERA Tim Duncan as well.

 

[OrangeDW]

LeBron is 6'8 250 with a PGs skill set. Compared to Jordan who was 6'6 195 with a SGs skill set (except he sucked from 3). There always have been and always will be player's with Jordan's skill set (Oscar Robertson, Julius Erving, Kobe Bryant, etc.). There will never be another LeBron James.

And before someone says Jordan "was a winner". Let this sink in...

LeBron took 9 players: Eric Snow, Anderson Varejao, Doneyll Marshall, Drew Gooden, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Larry Houghes, Sasha Pavlovic, Damon Jones, and Daniel Gibson to the NBA Finals in his 4th year.

Jordan took 11 players: BJ Armstrong, John Paxson, Scottie Pippen, Bill Catwright, Horace Grant, Cliff Levingston, Stacey King, Will Perdue, Craig Hodges, and Dennis Hopson to the NBA Finals in his 7th year.

Also, Jordan road James Worthy's coattails to an NCAA championship in '82.

Read in Simmons article the other day that Jordan's Bulls NEVER lost 3 games in a row from 1990 to 1998. Jordan "was a winner". No debating that.

And Dr. J had Jordan's skill set? Gotta ask...have you ever watched the two play, beyond highlight reels? I mean, they both jumped high and popularized dunking and high flying. They're both hall of famers. Probably where it ends.

 

[OrangeDW]

My point is that LeBron is better than Jordan who he is always compared to.

Jordan was 108-138 without Pippen on the Bulls and 1-11 in the playoffs without Pippen.

The NBA, and especially the East, was at its weakest point in the 90s. Toronto Raptros, Charlotte Hornets, Miami Heat, Orlando Magic, and the Minnesota Timberwolves were all added to the league between '88 and '95 thinning the NBA's talent pool.


Backcourt hand checking was eliminated in '95 and the "Clear Path" rule was also added in '95.

The Pistons were in decline when Jordan finally broke through. Isiah Thomas was three years away from retirement in '91; he only played in 48 games the '91 season. Vinnie Johnson was two years away from retirement and the same for Bill Laimbeer. Of those with significant playing time the Bulls (27), on average, were three years younger than the Pistons (30).

OK, no more asking. It's now obvious you didn't watch Michael Jordan play.

The"without Pippen" stat is flat out ridiculous. Young Jordan's Bulls(with no help) couldn't beat arguably the greatest team of all time in the '86 Celtics, or the '87 Celtics...I guess you don't realize that the Cavs didn't even make the playoffs until Lebron's 3rd year, and the 00's East is horrible compared to the 1980's East.

 

[gocraz4dasu]

LeBron is 6'8 250 with a PGs skill set. Compared to Jordan who was 6'6 195 with a SGs skill set (except he sucked from 3). There always have been and always will be player's with Jordan's skill set (Oscar Robertson, Julius Erving, Kobe Bryant, etc.). There will never be another LeBron James.

And before someone says Jordan "was a winner". Let this sink in...

LeBron took 9 players: Eric Snow, Anderson Varejao, Doneyll Marshall, Drew Gooden, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Larry Houghes, Sasha Pavlovic, Damon Jones, and Daniel Gibson to the NBA Finals in his 4th year.

Jordan took 11 players: BJ Armstrong, John Paxson, Scottie Pippen, Bill Catwright, Horace Grant, Cliff Levingston, Stacey King, Will Perdue, Craig Hodges, and Dennis Hopson to the NBA Finals in his 7th year.

Also, Jordan road James Worthy's coattails to an NCAA championship in '82.

Errrr... Magic Johnson was the first player with those skills and of similar size dimensions. It's a bit extreme to say there won't be another when there was already one before him.

 

[Cuse315Pat]

Lebron is a special talent one of the greatest of all-time but those Pistons teams took physical to the extreme. Lebron is coddled and whenever he gets fouled hard today complains and hard today isn't anywhere close to the 1980's.
Mahorn, Laimbeer. Salley one of them would have hammered Lebron and kept hammering him. The Pistons played the mental game better than team in recent NBA history.

The problem is people say this about LeBron all day every day, but it's not LeBron.. It's the NBA for the last 15 years. Who was the last player you saw goto the rim and not look at the ref like, "DUDE HE FKN FOULED ME BLOW A DAMN WHISTLE" Paul Pierce and Kobe Bryant have been doing it much longer than LeBron yet LeBrons the only one criticized for it, much like everything else.

I'm pretty sure a guy with LeBron's size and speed and strength would have done well for himself back in the 80's and 90's. He probably would have had better teammates too. They played differently back then, and I'm sure he would have learned from the game.

The fact is the guy could retire right now and be close to top 5 players of all time. If his body can hold up, he will be making runs to the NBA finals in 2022. He's a freak of nature, much like Jordan and few others were. He's also the second most efficient basketball player of all time, behind you know who.

 

[Alsacs]

The problem is people say this about LeBron all day every day, but it's not LeBron.. It's the NBA for the last 15 years. Who was the last player you saw goto the rim and not look at the ref like, "DUDE HE FKN FOULED ME BLOW A DAMN WHISTLE" Paul Pierce and Kobe Bryant have been doing it much longer than LeBron yet LeBrons the only one criticized for it, much like everything else.

I'm pretty sure a guy with LeBron's size and speed and strength would have done well for himself back in the 80's and 90's. He probably would have had better teammates too. They played differently back then, and I'm sure he would have learned from the game.

The fact is the guy could retire right now and be close to top 5 players of all time. If his body can hold up, he will be making runs to the NBA finals in 2022. He's a freak of nature, much like Jordan and few others were. He's also the second most efficient basketball player of all time, behind you know who.

I agree with your point all NBA stars have become babies crying to officials. Lebron could have played in any ERA but this callling yourself King James would have never happened during the 80's or 90's. The 80's Pistons and 90's Knicks would have beaten the crap out of Lebron. I don't think Lebron overcomes adversity well. He is Karl Malone's body, mixed with Jordan's athleticism, and Magic's passing skills. He has just been coddled his entire career because the NBA markets the stars like gods instead of teams. Kobe and Pierce crying little babies I agree. I haven't liked the Lakers my entire career Kobe during the 2005-2006 was the most selfish star of all-time. I respect Kobe never liked his game because he is old-school I don't like Lebron James just because as I said he doesn't strike as a a guy who can overcome adversity he seems like a frontrunner. He is an alltime great and I can't take that from him, but I don't think my opinion will ever change. I am happy for Northeast Ohio fans, but Lebron is an alltime great I won't miss because the guy just strikes me wrong unlike Jordan, Kobe etc.

 

[Cuse315Pat]

I agree with your point all NBA stars have become babies crying to officials. Lebron could have played in any ERA but this callling yourself King James would have never happened during the 80's or 90's. The 80's Pistons and 90's Knicks would have beaten the crap out of Lebron. I don't think Lebron overcomes adversity well. He is Karl Malone's body, mixed with Jordan's athleticism, and Magic's passing skills. He has just been coddled his entire career because the NBA markets the stars like gods instead of teams. Kobe and Pierce crying little babies I agree. I haven't liked the Lakers my entire career Kobe during the 2005-2006 was the most selfish star of all-time. I respect Kobe never liked his game because he is old-school I don't like Lebron James just because as I said he doesn't strike as a a guy who can overcome adversity he seems like a frontrunner. He is an alltime great and I can't take that from him, but I don't think my opinion will ever change. I am happy for Northeast Ohio fans, but Lebron is an alltime great I won't miss because the guy just strikes me wrong unlike Jordan, Kobe etc.

I see what your saying. Agree for the most part, except I've been a fan of LeBron's since he and Melo were in high school. They put on some good shows against eachother it was great to watch them both. I'm more of a college than pro fan, so I don't really root for many professional teams, I just like watching the great players do what they do. I usually just watch NFL and NBA playoffs, but college all year. I don't even know if it was he who named himself King James or if it was ESPN and SI and such, with him just rolling with it, not a clue. The only problem I ever had with him was for him being too stupid to realize the TV special of the decision. I literally saw it live and did a spur of the moment facepalm and said "What an idiot, you could have presented that so much better." I just laughed after that, oh well.

I don't knock him for goin to Miami though, everyone questions what his legacy is because he switches teams, I don't see the problem. Kobe and Michael had the best coach of all time, and great recruiting skills and smart draft picks that brought All Stars and great role players to their teams. Cleveland made terrible trades and bust picks left and right. They are cursed with having garbage management it seems. At least he didn't leave for money, can always say that. I'd rather make the choice of winning too.

People like Michael, LeBron, Oscar and such, there's only so much a single individual can do, even them. Takes great teams to win. I just wish the East had more great teams. Truth is, I could see LeBron making it to another 4 or 5 finals by the time he's all done, with a few competitive series in the East. Makes you wonder if the Heat would have made it past a Bulls team with a healthy Rose in the last couple years. The east would be so much better if these teams weren't injury prone. But I think it's unfair how people put down how good he is and try to say LeBron wouldn't beat the MJ teams and such cause I mean, MJ probably wouldn't have beaten the prime Bird and Magic teams in those early years for a couple three peats.

 

[Cuse315Pat]

Besides, I feel like in 25 years people won't be saying LeBron wasn't this and that with Michael, they'll say the dude carried his team to the finals 5 times in his first 11 seasons, and so on. But it would be a better story if it ended with "But Melo won the next four championships" or something.

 

[Fireball Jr.]

I don't think Lebron overcomes adversity well."

Are you serious?

 

[Knicks411]

OK, no more asking. It's now obvious you didn't watch Michael Jordan play.

The"without Pippen" stat is flat out ridiculous. Young Jordan's Bulls(with no help) couldn't beat arguably the greatest team of all time in the '86 Celtics, or the '87 Celtics...I guess you don't realize that the Cavs didn't even make the playoffs until Lebron's 3rd year, and the 00's East is horrible compared to the 1980's East.

I admit I'm jumping in late, but one thing I'll say is that the Bulls won 30 games and made the playoffs in Jordan's second year. Of course the obvious caveat is that Jordan played like 20 games that season, so if he's healthy, the Bulls clearly win more than 30 games. Then again, Lebron's third year in the NBA would have been Jordan's junior year in college, so the comparison isn't exactly fair either way.

Anyway, Jordan is still my pick for GOAT. But Lebron does have a chance, imo, to pass him.

 

[KaiserUEO]

I admit I'm jumping in late, but one thing I'll say is that the Bulls won 30 games and made the playoffs in Jordan's second year. Of course the obvious caveat is that Jordan played like 20 games that season, so if he's healthy, the Bulls clearly win more than 30 games. Then again, Lebron's third year in the NBA would have been Jordan's junior year in college, so the comparison isn't exactly fair either way.

Anyway, Jordan is still my pick for GOAT. But Lebron does have a chance, imo, to pass him.

The '94 bulls minus Jordan won 55 games and took their arch rival Knicks to 7 games before going out in the semis.

The '11 Cavs won 19 games.

19.

Jordan had 1 hell of a supporting cast.

LeBron might be better.

 

[Fireball Jr.]

The '94 bulls minus Jordan won 55 games and took their arch rival Knicks to 7 games before going out in the semis.

The '11 Cavs won 19 games.

19.

Jordan had 1 hell of a supporting cast.

LeBron might be better.

The Cavs were 17-65 with the worst attendance in the league when LeBron was a senior in high school. Next season, with a kid straight outta high school, the Cavs were 35–47, next season, 42-40...and, by comparison to Jordan's supporting casts, the Cavs were a bunch of dreck.

 

[Fireball Jr.]

I agree with your point all NBA stars have become babies crying to officials. Lebron could have played in any ERA but this callling yourself King James would have never happened during the 80's or 90's. The 80's Pistons and 90's Knicks would have beaten the crap out of Lebron. I don't think Lebron overcomes adversity well. He is Karl Malone's body, mixed with Jordan's athleticism, and Magic's passing skills. He has just been coddled his entire career because the NBA markets the stars like gods instead of teams. Kobe and Pierce crying little babies I agree. I haven't liked the Lakers my entire career Kobe during the 2005-2006 was the most selfish star of all-time. I respect Kobe never liked his game because he is old-school I don't like Lebron James just because as I said he doesn't strike as a a guy who can overcome adversity he seems like a frontrunner. He is an alltime great and I can't take that from him, but I don't think my opinion will ever change. I am happy for Northeast Ohio fans, but Lebron is an alltime great I won't miss because the guy just strikes me wrong unlike Jordan, Kobe etc.

Exactly, no whining in the "good ol' days"

 

[MikeSU02]

I admit I'm jumping in late, but one thing I'll say is that the Bulls won 30 games and made the playoffs in Jordan's second year. Of course the obvious caveat is that Jordan played like 20 games that season, so if he's healthy, the Bulls clearly win more than 30 games. Then again, Lebron's third year in the NBA would have been Jordan's junior year in college, so the comparison isn't exactly fair either way.

Anyway, Jordan is still my pick for GOAT. But Lebron does have a chance, imo, to pass him.

I've re-watched some old Jordan games on ESPN Classic and NBA TV. I agree with your assessment. Jordan is still the GOAT to me, but LeBron is still going to be playing for 8 more years I bet.

Jordan's ability to force his will and dominate games defied logic. He was probably mentally the equivalent of some violent criminals.

LeBron just isn't wired that way. He tees all his teammates up to extract every ounce of potential out of them. I think he'll evolve his game to be wildly different in his later years.

My only quibble with LeBron is the influence he forces with the teams he plays for. He hand picks a lot of his teammates.

And while Jordan definitely did the same, to an extent, the Jerrys rebuffed him quite a bit.