an open and honest discussion about SU's offense

[Shark58]

this thread is not meant to bash Jim or get us all in an orange tizzy, but I would like a real conversation about SU's offense, especially in recent years, and how effective it has been vs possibilities of what we coulda been/could become on the offensive end.

Yes, I know Jim and the staff has forgotten more than I'll ever know. Yes, I know we have lost players early that would have definitely improved the O if they returned like Mali. Yes, I know I should gfms.

I understand one argument for our lack of O prowess is that we recruit for D. we get lanky athletes, esp at the wings, who profile well for the zone but aren't necessarily offensive juggernauts. some, like O'Shea, come better than expected on O while others like CJ & Kris more grow into the role. similarly at G, and especially the point, we seem to prefer the combo type guard instead of the Ennis type distributor. This profile type at the 1 hampers movement and helps make the offense as a whole a bit stagnant.

this leads to the next point that our O has seemed to devolve over the past couple of years to perimeter passing and looking for high ball screens with the pick being set by someone who is often the wrong guy doing so (Robe, BMK, Chucky) because they are limited in what they can do and when the drive into two defenders doesn't go well and they are now the outlet pass. When we run this with guys like Brisset, Lydon (and even a little Rak) coming up high it is much more effective. Part of the reason we don't probably has something to do with the lack of additional scorers on recent teams to provide an additional threat elsewhere on the court but still running it to a dead end doesn't help flow and is a big reason, imho, that so may possessions end up with poor shots. I'd much rather guys like Chucky and Robe spent way more time down low on the weak side looking to crash the boards and get put back points, or even a lob cut or two for easy 'oops.

one thing that drives me personally crazy is our seaming lack of plays. maybe a handful of times in the last decade of watching Cuse hoops can I remember a pg coming down court, setting up the offense calling for a set play, and us running that play effectively and repeatedly over the course of a game. Jimmy even admitted last year he had no current plays for the team. I get that he likes to have athletes make plays and I'm all for letting them play a loose offense but there are times the team struggles and it would be nice to have a set play or three to fall back on.

another thing is that when something unscripted works, we don't seem to go back to it. there was one tourney game, I think against Duke, where Battle was dribbling down the right side with Marek leading him. Marek made a quick turn and sealed the defender and Battle put up a shot right over his back. Simple, effective and the shot went in. A fellow long time Cuse fan who was in my living room joked if that was a set play and we watched as we never went back to it, or anything like it again for the rest of the game.

I'm hopeful that with O'Shea, a more assertive Marek, Frank, Carey, Hughes, Buddy etc. next year we'll have more firepower and the O will be office because of personnel but if a better scheme could be worked in, that wouldn't suck.

what say you?

 

[UnknownOrange]

Yes, I know I should gfms.

Laughed out loud here

 

[GooseMutt]

What I think is a major weakness is that our players are not good playing off the ball. Very little movement and no one is cutting to the basket . Everyone just spreads out staying in their general area. I don’t know if they are too tired from playing the zone or what

 

[moqui]

this thread is not meant to bash Jim or get us all in an orange tizzy,

for me, the most interesting thing about this thread will not be whether but rather how long this goal lasts.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I think it’s outdated. A lot of teams are following the NBA and moving to a systems based on ball movement where we tend to leave the ball in one or two players hands to create for themselves or others as the NBA did previously.

I thought the best offense we ever had was in 09-10 and that was for the most part because we lacked a lot of Isolation players we relied on ball movement and movement off the ball.

We also lack skilled players at the 4 and 5 most years so that sets what we can do back a bit as JB tends to prioritize rim protection over offensive skill at those positions during recruiting.

 

[albanycuse]

There’s nothing wrong with the offense the only problem we have had is the sanctions placed against us. It crippled everything! Recruiting, wins , and our lack of offense is the direct impact from the NCAA bs sanctions.

 

[Trueblue25]

Offense hinges on Marek and Elijah being able to draw defenders by taking and making shots.. We know frank and Oshae can make offense.

Would be nice to allow a stud freshman to develop for once.

 

[stuckinbig11]

offense dictated by what is left after early exits to NBA

 

[OrangeDW]

Offense hinges on Marek and Elijah being able to draw defenders by taking and making shots.. We know frank and Oshae can make offense.

Would be nice to allow a stud freshman to develop for once.

Carey and Sidibe could be factors too.

If Marek can become a viable outside shooter next year, I will be intrigued to see how our offense looks with a lineup of Carey, Howard, Brissett, Marek, and Sidibe...4 guys who can do multiple positive things with the ball on the perimeter, and an inside guy who can catch the ball and finish.

Now obviously that’s assuming a lot of things go right: 1. Carey is ready 2. Marek’s range and outside shot improves quite a bit. 3. Sidibe is healthy and plays consistently like he did only a few times last year.

But I like the potential. I’d be shocked if our offense looks as stagnant and easy to defend if the above happens.

 

[Trueblue25]

Carey and Sidibe could be factors too.

If Marek can become a viable outside shooter next year, I will be intrigued to see how our offense looks with a lineup of Carey, Howard, Brissett, Marek, and Sidibe...4 guys who can do multiple positive things with the ball on the perimeter, and an inside guy who can catch the ball and finish.

Now obviously that’s assuming a lot of things go right: 1. Carey is ready 2. Marek’s range and outside shot improves quite a bit. 3. Sidibe is healthy and plays consistently like he did only a few times last year.

But I like the potential. I’d be shocked if our offense looks as stagnant and easy to defend if the above happens.

I think Marek being able to step into an 18 footer with confidence, alone, gives us a whole new look. If him and elijah are credible scoring threats then oshae can ditch the bail out corners threes and drive/prayer for fouls.

If Frank and Oshae dont have to bail us out 75% of possessions i think we’re back to a top 20 team.

Sidibe and Carey being scoring threats would be bonuses. Id like carey to be allowed to grow as a scoring freshman as battle was.

 

[OrangeDW]

I know this...if I’m playing ball and the other team has someone who can’t do anything with the ball and I’m guarding him...I play off him, cheat, help on the guys who can drive, double the guys who can score inside, and allow everyone else to play tighter on the shooters.

Point being, 4 on 5 doesn’t work. 3 on 5 doesn’t work. And I’m not just talking about scoring either. We had guys catching the ball on the perimeter and just travelling. For no reason. We had guys who didn’t catch the ball. Flat out.

Even if you don’t have 5 scorers, you’ve gotta at least have non scorers that you can throw a pass to, and that can do things to set up the scorers and keep the offense flowing.

We had guys at times that couldn’t do much of anything on offense. Makes it tough to run what we want to see.

 

[Brooky03]

Offense was slow but efficient with the grad transfers. Offense was slow but efficient with Ennis cuz he was NBA talent who liked to play that way and had the ball in his hands. The other years just lacked offensive talent and a pg.

That's all I have to add.

 

[KaiserUEO]

The offense has been unfluckinbelievable.

They score more points than the often superior opponent, 20x a year.

It’s gotten to 2 F4s and a Sweet 16 in last 5 years, while on probation.

It’s had no depth and no balance...and no NBA players.

The HS kids here even know the plays, yet no one can consistently stop them.

It’s a marvel, just stunning in its efficiency.

 

[Trueblue25]

I pray Frank doesnt have to be our 2nd option. He’s capable and talented, but I think he could be a whole new player as the 3rd or 4th. It’ll actually allow him to focus on creating and picking his j’s. He’s developed a great shot, he’ll never be an iso guy though.

Our lack of offensive threats has seriously hindered his natural talents. Its why a lot of people still believe he’s a lesser talent/fit than he is

 

[Waltdods]

Offense was slow but efficient with the grad transfers. Offense was slow but efficient with Ennis cuz he was NBA talent who liked to play that way and had the ball in his hands. The other years just lacked offensive talent and a pg.

That's all I have to add.

Agree with this.

Syracuse had a bad offense last year.

In 2017, Syracuse was 30th in the country in adjusted offensive efficiency.

In 2016, Syracuse was 50th.
In 2015, Syracuse was pretty bad (117).
In 2014, Syracuse was 28th.
In 2013, Syracuse was 26th.
In 2012, Syracuse was 7th.
In 2011, Syracuse was 24th.
In 2010, Syracuse was 6th.
In 2009, Syracuse was 10th.

Looking at that suggests to me that, first, people are greatly overreading two data points (2018 and 2015) and second that the results have more to do with the players than the system.

For aesthetic reasons, I too wish the team ran more and went less iso heavy. But I don’t think the evidence is very strong that there’s anything fatally flawed about the offensive game plan. Last years team had three players who could actually play offense, and one was somehow incapable of making layups. That’s not going to be a good offensive team, no matter the system.

 

[scottynguyen]

The team does start in sets sometimes. Through these past few years they have run floppy sets, last year they ran some horns sets. It almost always devolves into pick and roll and iso though.

My issue is there is rarely enough secondary action off the ball. Any team worth a damn can guard a single action pretty successfully over the course of a game.

When you tailor an offense around pick and roll and iso (rather than say, a motion heavy offense) a lot of the time it boils down to individual talent and I don't think it's outrageous to say we have been lacking in that pretty recently.

 

[two3zone]

If we get rid of the pick and roll I’ll be good. All that pick does is draw a double team and congest traffic around the ball for really no reason as we don’t pass the ball to the roller anyway.

It rarely leads to anything good.

 

[HOFCeluck]

The offense has been unfluckinbelievable.

They score more points than the often superior opponent, 20x a year.

It’s gotten to 2 F4s and a Sweet 16 in last 5 years, while on probation.

It’s had no depth and no balance...and no NBA players.

The HS kids here even know the plays, yet no one can consistently stop them.

It’s a marvel, just stunning in its efficiency.

Amazing.

 

[Shaggy1]

1. You cannot be efficient...no matter what the numbers say when the majority of your offense is high screen with a non threatening screener/roller (Pascal). Why not run it with a wing that will give us better matchups for both the attacker and roller and clear the big to the opposite block or short corner for a dump down or lob or rebound. Angle in equals angle out on rebounds. Lots of put backs if we run it with a wing to high ball screen.
2. The only player on the team that sets the high roll and actually rolls the correct way is Marek. Basic basketball that if we can’t teach...major issue.
3. Lack of more than one outside threat. Gotta have at least 2 or 3 players way above 30 percent beyond the arc.
4. Run more than one inbounds play...we ran two all year last year.
5. Fast break offense with a second option to a low post trailer...we have lacked any centers or PF that can post on a fast break after the first option breaks down.
6. At least three offensive plays to get an open cutter or shooter. We had one with Andrew White we ran every first possession. Gmac and Andy had the handoff screen for a jumper. Etc.
7. A high low game. Please let us get Stewart for this.

Yes, James Arthur knows way more about basketball than me. But in my opinion, these points would be my focus for teams the last 8 years and this coming year.

 

[rrlbees]

If we get rid of the pick and roll I’ll be good. All that pick does is draw a double team and congest traffic around the ball for really no reason as we don’t pass the ball to the roller anyway.

It rarely leads to anything good.

I don’t consider what we did with the centers as pick and roll. There wasn’t ever any real roll. It was a pick to allow the ball handler to get some space.

 

[Shaggy1]

If we get rid of the pick and roll I’ll be good. All that pick does is draw a double team and congest traffic around the ball for really no reason as we don’t pass the ball to the roller anyway.

It rarely leads to anything good.

It should be run differently. See my post. I agree with you.

 

[two3zone]

1. You cannot be efficient...no matter what the numbers say when the majority of your offense is high screen with a non threatening screener/roller (Pascal). Why not run it with a wing that will give us better matchups for both the attacker and roller and clear the big to the opposite block or short corner for a dump down or lob or rebound. Angle in equals angle out on rebounds. Lots of put backs if we run it with a wing to high ball screen.
2. The only player on the team that sets the high roll and actually rolls the correct way is Marek. Basic basketball that if we can’t teach...major issue.
3. Lack of more than one outside threat. Gotta have at least 2 or 3 players way above 30 percent beyond the arc.
4. Run more than one inbounds play...we ran two all year last year.
5. Fast break offense with a second option to a low post trailer...we have lacked any centers or PF that can post on a fast break after the first option breaks down.
6. At least three offensive plays to get an open cutter or shooter. We had one with Andrew White we ran every first possession. Gmac and Andy had the handoff screen for a jumper. Etc.
7. A high low game. Please let us get Stewart for this.

Yes, James Arthur knows way more about basketball than me. But in my opinion, these points would be my focus for teams the last 8 years and this coming year.

Agreed, these are all the issues I see.

 

[Shark58]

If we get rid of the pick and roll I’ll be good. All that pick does is draw a double team and congest traffic around the ball for really no reason as we don’t pass the ball to the roller anyway.

It rarely leads to anything good.

1. You cannot be efficient...no matter what the numbers say when the majority of your offense is high screen with a non threatening screener/roller (Pascal). Why not run it with a wing that will give us better matchups for both the attacker and roller and clear the big to the opposite block or short corner for a dump down or lob or rebound. Angle in equals angle out on rebounds. Lots of put backs if we run it with a wing to high ball screen.
2. The only player on the team that sets the high roll and actually rolls the correct way is Marek. Basic basketball that if we can’t teach...major issue.
3. Lack of more than one outside threat. Gotta have at least 2 or 3 players way above 30 percent beyond the arc.
4. Run more than one inbounds play...we ran two all year last year.
5. Fast break offense with a second option to a low post trailer...we have lacked any centers or PF that can post on a fast break after the first option breaks down.
6. At least three offensive plays to get an open cutter or shooter. We had one with Andrew White we ran every first possession. Gmac and Andy had the handoff screen for a jumper. Etc.
7. A high low game. Please let us get Stewart for this.

Yes, James Arthur knows way more about basketball than me. But in my opinion, these points would be my focus for teams the last 8 years and this coming year.

the way we've been running the screen leads to both the ball carrier now being double teamed and also his nearest outlet pass to an open player who cam't do anything with the ball and too often turns it over. It also puts a big out of position for an offensive rebound if the now double teamed guy puts up a quick shot or if the screen is happening late in the shot clock.

 

[newmexicuse]

1. You cannot be efficient...no matter what the numbers say when the majority of your offense is high screen with a non threatening screener/roller (Pascal). Why not run it with a wing that will give us better matchups for both the attacker and roller and clear the big to the opposite block or short corner for a dump down or lob or rebound. Angle in equals angle out on rebounds. Lots of put backs if we run it with a wing to high ball screen.
2. The only player on the team that sets the high roll and actually rolls the correct way is Marek. Basic basketball that if we can’t teach...major issue.
3. Lack of more than one outside threat. Gotta have at least 2 or 3 players way above 30 percent beyond the arc.
4. Run more than one inbounds play...we ran two all year last year.
5. Fast break offense with a second option to a low post trailer...we have lacked any centers or PF that can post on a fast break after the first option breaks down.
6. At least three offensive plays to get an open cutter or shooter. We had one with Andrew White we ran every first possession. Gmac and Andy had the handoff screen for a jumper. Etc.
7. A high low game. Please let us get Stewart for this.

Yes, James Arthur knows way more about basketball than me. But in my opinion, these points would be my focus for teams the last 8 years and this coming year.

Great post - all salient points.

Game is changing, it is now mandatory to have a minimum of three efficient three point shooters on the floor at all times. Four is preferable. This has to be supplemented by strong ball movement.

Last season - Ty was Melo - all iso. We did not have enough overall talent to play the modern game.

This season there is the opportunity for change.

Big problem is that jimmy wants the ball in the hands of players he trusts, and there was not enough of those players on the roster.

This season, unless this entire forum is off on our appraisal of talent, Jimmy will need to trust Marek, Oshae, Hughes, Carey, and Frank. That is five who should be able to shoot efficiently. Can Buddy add himself to that list ?

Can Chuk improve enough to be able to be trusted to catch the ball ?

Also, last season we had a good D, but we really did not have enough speed to consistently break even after TOs. Can Carey change that dynamic ?

 

[Eric15]

Can Chuk improve enough to be able to be trusted to catch the ball ?

Haha I feel like this is a question you would ask of a 5 year old team. "Alright Billy, if we pass you the ball, do you think you can catch it?"

(Your question is perfectly valid, btw)